Rumores y discusión sobre el próximo multirrol que no fue para la FAA

me262

Colaborador
hay algun caza de cuarta generacion que no use jp8?
Estimado, el JP-8 es un requerimiento de la USAF para sus aviones.

JP-8 es un combustible derivado del JP-1, con la adición de inhibidor de corrosión y aditivos anticongelantes.
Es el grado de combustible de aviación militar que usan las fuerzas aéreas de la OTAN.

Este producto cumple con la especificación MIL-DTL-83133.

Se usa en todos los reactores de la USAF, excepto en los portaaviones que se usa el JP-5, que tiene un punto de inflamación mas alto que el JP-8, por su riesgo de incendio.

No es una fórmula secreta, se conocen sus componentes, y las principales petroleras lo producen.

Saludos.
 

tanoarg

Miembro del Staff
Moderador
Estimado, el JP-8 es un requerimiento de la USAF para sus aviones.

JP-8 es un combustible derivado del JP-1, con la adición de inhibidor de corrosión y aditivos anticongelantes.
Es el grado de combustible de aviación militar que usan las fuerzas aéreas de la OTAN.

Este producto cumple con la especificación MIL-DTL-83133.

Se usa en todos los reactores de la USAF, excepto en los portaaviones que se usa el JP-5, que tiene un punto de inflamación mas alto que el JP-8, por su riesgo de incendio.

No es una fórmula secreta, se conocen sus componentes, y las principales petroleras lo producen.

Saludos.
gracias amigazo, tenia referencia al mismo porque lo busque en wiki, pero segun lei, es norma otan desde 1978.
a lo que lleva a mi pregunta....el fa50....teniendo el motor que tiene....hubiese usado jp8?
 

me262

Colaborador
a lo que lleva a mi pregunta....el fa50....teniendo el motor que tiene....hubiese usado jp8?
Deduzco que la RoKAF usa JP-8, y el F-404 lo usa el Hornet.

Ingeniería de GE puede programar la computadora del motor para JP-1 que usa el A4, sin que afecte el rendimiento, porque originalmente el F-404 usaba JP-1 o JP-4.

Cómo también se programa para JP-5, el P&W F-135 del F-35B.

Igual es algo que YPF, Shell o Axion pueden hacer en el país.

Pero básicamente el uso de JP-8, es por cuestiones de seguridad, porque dentro del paquete de aditivos, también cuenta con un aditivo antiestática...

Saludos.
 
Con todo respeto, cuál es el avión que quiere la FAA???

Se lo pregunto a usted, porque no es cualquier forista, es alguien que tiene contacto directo con la Fuerza.

Porque sinceramente, es algo que simplificaría años y páginas discutiendo siempre lo mismo en el foro.

Sobre la hidracina

http://www.austral-chem.cl/prod/performance-chemicals/hydrazine--derivatives (se emplea en actividades de fundición-calderas también. Hay bastante oferta derivada de la industria minera)

Lo que es más complejo es el JP-8, si bien existen laboratorios certificadores en el país:

En cuanto a la producción de combustibles en Chile




En aviación se produce:

https://www.enap.cl/pag/117/1001/kerosene_aviacion (JET A1)

Aquí hay un interesante artículo sobre lo que sucede al operar con JET A1 sin aditivos del JP-8


El Gripen NG BR también usa JP-8

Pero también fue probado con biofuel: https://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/04/20170406-gripen.html

¿con qué lo ocupará Brasil?
 
Pero don bigua si vamos con la plata en mano seguro....
Jajaja es un chiste.

gracias por su infinita paciencia, yo
Creo que queda bien en claro todo.

lamentablemente, no hay voluntad política de nada.
Ojalá el futuro algún día nos depare alguna grata sorpresa, por el momento soy exceptico.
No hay voluntad.... tanto así, qué yo diría que incluso, más allá del 2023.... (ya seremos una Fuerza Aérea cómo la de Nueva Zelanda, cómo las de Bosnia-Hercegovina, Macedonia del Norte y Montenegro; también cómo las de Panamá, ¿¿la del Paraguay??, la de Costa Rica (no tiene FA)... ¿¿la de Nicaragua??..y así.... ergo, SIN CAPACIDADES DE COMBATE....)
 

BIGUA82

VETERANO DE GUERRA DE MALVINAS
Colaborador
Bien Me262,esos son los componentes del JP-8.Me confirman que el F-18 usa JP8.
Los C-130 de la USAF usan JP8,nuestros C-130 usan JP1,los motores de los C-130 pueden tararse para JP8 en la TIT de arranque y en crucero,pero como no se produce en el pais,se emplea desde su llegada JP1 como todos los aviones de la FAA por ser mas barato y sin dependencia.
Esto crea una independencia con respecto a adquirir aditivos para transformar al JP1..
El motor del FA-50 es apto para JP1 con un taraje del arranque y crucero por parte de GE.
Me 262,no estoy tan seguro que YPF pueda producir JP-8,sin tener que adquirir la licencia y autorizacion,las otras son empresas son extranjeras.
 

BIGUA82

VETERANO DE GUERRA DE MALVINAS
Colaborador
Sobre la hidracina

http://www.austral-chem.cl/prod/performance-chemicals/hydrazine--derivatives (se emplea en actividades de fundición-calderas también. Hay bastante oferta derivada de la industria minera)

Lo que es más complejo es el JP-8, si bien existen laboratorios certificadores en el país:

En cuanto a la producción de combustibles en Chile




En aviación se produce:

https://www.enap.cl/pag/117/1001/kerosene_aviacion (JET A1)

Aquí hay un interesante artículo sobre lo que sucede al operar con JET A1 sin aditivos del JP-8


El Gripen NG BR también usa JP-8

Pero también fue probado con biofuel: https://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/04/20170406-gripen.html

¿con qué lo ocupará Brasil?
ENAP Chile no produce JP8.Estoy buscando una actualizacion,pero ningun pais latinoamericano producia hasta el año pasado JP8,que es de uso exclusivo militar.Algunas aerolineas estadounidenses habian hecho pruebas en mezclar JP1 y JP8 pero resultaba finalmente mas caro.
 
Interesante nota... USAF dejando el JP-8 y pasándose al JET-A con aditivo porque éste último está más difundido:

Air Force completes historic fuel conversion​

By Master Sgt. Brad West, Air Force Petroleum Agency / Published October 31, 2014

Col. Linda Hurry grinds off a JP-8 fuel decal on an R11 refueler as part of the Air Force transition to commercial jet fuel Oct. 15, 2014, Scott Air Force Base, Ill. The Jet A conversion is a Department of Defense cost saving initiative that will save the Air Force approximately $25.5 million dollars annually. Hurry is the 635th Supply Chain Operations Wing Commander. (U.S. Air Force photo/Tech Sgt. Christopher Boitz)

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Col. Linda Hurry grinds off a JP-8 fuel decal on an R11 refueler as part of the Air Force transition to commercial jet fuel Oct. 15, 2014, Scott Air Force Base, Ill. The Jet A conversion is a Department of Defense cost saving initiative that will save the Air Force approximately $25.5 million dollars annually. Hurry is the 635th Supply Chain Operations Wing Commander. (U.S. Air Force photo/Tech Sgt. Christopher Boitz)
Col. Linda Hurry applies the Jet A1 fuel sticker on an R11 refueler as part of the conversion from JP8 fuel to Jet A1 fuel Oct. 15, 2014, Scott Air Force Base, Ill. Jet A1 fuel was created as a cost savings measure by the Department of Defense and will save approximately $40 million dollars annually. Hurry is the 635th Supply Chain Operations Wing commander. (U.S. Air Force photo/Tech Sgt. Christopher Boitz)





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WASHINGTON (AFNS) -- The Air Force officials took an important step in fiscal responsibility and supply chain efficiency with the conversion of the final stateside installation from Jet Propellant 8 (JP-8) fuel to the more common and commercially available Jet A fuel, Oct. 29 at Wright Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio.

The transition to Jet A completed a process where the Air Force, in partnership with the Defense Logistics Agency, converted 130 stateside Air Force fuels locations in less than five years, approximately 18 months ahead of the estimated 2016 conversion completion date.

"The fuel conversion at Wright Patterson AFB marks the end of a journey and the beginning of a new era of financial stewardship for the Air Force fuels community," said Col. Linda Hurry, the 635th Supply Chain Operations Wing commander at Scott AFB, Illinois.

The Air Force Petroleum Agency (AFPET) became operationally aligned under the 635th SCOW as of Oct. 3 as part of the Future Air Force Organization initiative.

The Jet A conversion process began in 2009 as an AFSO21 cost savings initiative that incorporated Defense Acquisition Reform policy and the Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007 guidance.

"Education and open dialogue have been key to the Jet A conversion," Hurry said. "It is a true testament to our Air Force logistics leadership team and our fuels professionals, who realized the benefits associated with this conversion and accelerated the process."

"Over the past 10 years refineries were becoming hesitant to produce JP-8 fuel, as it required segregated handling and transportation. Suppliers desire to produce the commercial grade Jet A fuel, which is a fungible product and readily available." said Col. Carmen Goyette, the commander of the Air Force Petroleum Agency.

Because of its interchangeability and availability, the switch to a commercial specification product will expand the industrial base and should eventually mean lower overall aviation fuel costs for military customers, Goyette said.

Air Force bases will now receive Jet A blended with the same additives required in JP-8. Jet A with additives, has been assigned the NATO code F-24.

"Department of Defense aircraft have received Jet A at commercial airports for years and we have researched extensively, in concert with the Air Force Research Laboratory, to ensure commercial Jet A would not impact the Air Force mission," Goyette said. "Translation of the program intent to our NATO partners was key to the continued success of joint exercise and tenant programs."

Jet A (F-24) performs essentially the same as JP-8 (F-34), with the same additives, and saves everyone money, Goyette said.

The conversion allows not only the Air Force, but the Department of Defense as a whole to take advantage of a much larger commercial fuels supply chain and promises a 2 cent per gallon initial cost savings.

Two cents a gallon will yield a significant savings as the DOD spent $6.95 billion on JP-8 in 2013. The Air Force purchases more than one billion gallons of fuel annually within the CONUS, therefore the transition will save the Air Force an estimated $25.5 million in annual fuel costs and will help eliminate excess infrastructure, provide energy security and create operational flexibility for the Department of Defense.

The transition from military specification jet fuel to a commercially available jet fuel increases the agility of the Services and the Defense Logistics Agency (DLA) in their efforts to meet the warfighter requirements while simultaneously yielding multi-million dollar annual savings.

“As a result of their efforts the AF Petroleum Agency was selected for the 2013 Defense Standardization Program Team Achievement Award,” Hurry said. “This is the second consecutive year that AFPET has been recognized for exceptional Defense Standardization Program achievement.”

 
El JP1 en nuestros Grupos Tecnicos cuando es alijado un tanque para mantenimiento,es usado en calentadores BRAM-METAL!!! o en estufas,sirve para lavar componentes y hasta a veces para matar yuyos!!!
Recuerdo que en Contra Incendios usábamos el JP1 de YPF para todo, desde limpiar los pisos con aserrín y JP1, hasta para prender los fuegos en los ejercicios, pasando por limpiar las piezas de los camiones y las bombas cuando les hacíamos mantenimiento. Era cuestión de ir a la planta de carga de combustible con un bidón y pedirlo.
Saludos.
Flavio.
 
Jet A-1 Jet A-1 is a kerosine grade of fuel suitable for most turbine engined aircraft. It has a flash point minimum of 38°C (100°F) and a freeze point minimum of –47°C. It is widely available outside the U.S.A. The main specifications for Jet A-1 grade (see below) are the UK specification DEF STAN 91-91 (Jet A-1) NATO code F-35, (formerly DERD 2494) and the ASTM specification D 1655 (Jet A-1).


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TS-1 TS-1 is the main jet fuel grade available in Russia and the Commonwealth of Independent States. It is a kerosine type fuel with slightly higher volatility (flash point is 28°C minimum) and lower freeze point (<–50°C) compared with Jet A-1. It is supplied against the GOST 10227 specification.

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UK Jet Fuels Although developed originally as a military jet fuel specification by the UK Ministry of Defence, DEF STAN 91-91 (originally DERD 2494) has been adopted as the standard UK civil jet fuel specification. It defines the requirements for a kerosine type fuel (Jet A-1 grade) having a minimum freeze point of –47°C. Jet A-1 according to the DEF STAN 91-91 specification is essentially the same as Jet A-1 defined by the ASTM D 1655.

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Russian and East European Jet Fuels Russian kerosine type jet fuels are covered by a wide range of specification grades reflecting different crude sources and processing treatments used. The grade designation is T-1 to T-8, TS-1 or RT. The grades are covered either by a State Standard (GOST) number, or a Technical Condition (TU) number. The limiting property values, detailed fuel composition and test methods differ quite considerably in some cases from the Western equivalents. The principle grade available in Russia and other members of the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS) is TS-1 (written as TC-1 in Russian script).

The main differences in characteristics are that Russian fuels have a low freeze point (equivalent to about –57°C by Western test methods) but also a low flash point (a minimum of 28°C compared with 38°C for western fuel). RT fuel (written as PT in Russian script) is the superior grade (a hydrotreated product) but is not produced widely. TS-1 (regular grade) is considered to be on a par with Jet A-1 and is approved by most aircraft manufacturers.

In some locations in Russia and for exports, product may be supplied against the Russian Jet A-1 specification GOST 52050-2006 which is aligned with DEF STAN 91-91. Eastern European countries have their own national standards with their own nomenclature. Many are very similar to the Russian standards, but others reflect the requirements of visiting international airlines and are similar to Jet A-1 in properties and test methods.

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Chinese Jet Fuels Five types of jet fuel are covered by current Chinese specifications. Previously, each grade was numbered with a prefix RP; however, they are now renamed No.1 Jet Fuel, No.2 Jet Fuel, etc.. RP-1 and RP-2 are kerosines which are similar to Russian TS-1. They both have low flash points (minimum 28°C). RP-1 freeze point is –60°C and RP-2 is –50°C. RP-3 is essentially the same as Jet A-1. RP-4 is a wide-cut type fuel similar to Jet B and Russian T-2. RP-5 is a high flash point kerosine similar to that used in the west by naval aircraft operating on aircraft carriers. Virtually all jet fuel produced in China is now RP-3 (renamed No.3 Jet Fuel).



EN RESUMEN

Con el JET-A1 corriente puedes operar aeronaves rusas (no especifica más).

Saludos
 
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Un dolar y 50 centavos el galon?
No en cazas. En otras aeronaves rusas subsónicas (TS-1 utilizable donde se ocupa Jet-A1 según Shell)

Descripción del TS-1

TS-1 JET FUEL​

The TS-1 jet fuel grade is intended for use in subsonic aircraft.

Its physical, chemical, and performance specifications meet the requirements of Russia’s latest industry standard edition (GOST 10227). The product also fully conforms to the Customs Union Technical Regulations (Technical Regulation Act 013/2011 – Technical Requirements for Gasoline, Diesel, Bunker Fuels, Jet Fuels and Heating Oil).

TS-1 key properties:
  • high volatility to ensure combustion efficiency;
  • high efficiency and heat of combustion to ensure distance of flight;
  • high pumpability and good low-temperature properties for injection into the combustion chamber;
  • low deposit formation susceptibility;
  • high compatibility with materials, good anti-wear and anti-static properties.
If the content of total and mercaptan sulphur is high, the TS-1 fuel is subjected to hydrotreating or demercaptanization, and then mixed with straight-run fuel before use. Hydrotreated component content is limited to 70 % to prevent the deterioration of anti-wear properties.

Jet fuel is a low-hazard product and is classified as hazard Level 4 substance by GOST 12.1.007-76.

Storage life for jet fuel is five years as from the date of production.



El que usarìan los jets supersónicos rusos sería éste, el RT:

RT JET FUEL​

The RT jet fuel grade is intended for use both in subsonic and supersonic aircraft.

Its physical, chemical, and performance specifications meet the requirements of Russia’s latest industry standard (GOST 10227). The product also fully conforms to the Customs Union Technical Regulations (Technical Regulation Act 013/2011 – Technical Requirements for Gasoline, Diesel, Bunker Fuels, Jet Fuels and Heating Oil).

RT key properties:
  • high volatility to ensure combustion efficiency;
  • high efficiency and heat of combustion to ensure distance of flight;
  • high pumpability and good low-temperature properties for injection into the combustion chamber;
  • low total and mercaptan sulphur content;
  • low deposit formation susceptibility;
  • high compatibility with materials, good anti-wear and anti-static properties.
The RT fuel grade fully conforms to international requirements, with certain specifications even exceeding them. It boasts good anti-wear properties, high chemical and thermal oxidative stability, low total sulfur content and almost a complete absence of mercaptans. RT jet fuel is entirely suitable for use in a jet engine and shows no negative impact on its cycle life.

Jet fuel is a low-hazard product and is classified as hazard level 4 substance by GOST 12.1.007-76.

Guaranteed storage life for jet fuel is five years as from the date of production.




The principle grade available in Russia (and members of the CIS) is TS-1.

The main differences in characteristics are that Soviet fuels have a low freeze point (equivalent to about -57 degrees C by Western test methods) but also a low flash point (a minimum of 28 degrees C compared with 38 degrees C for Western fuel). RT fuel (written as PT in Russian script) is the superior grade (a hydrotreated product) but is not produced widely. TS-1 (regular grade) is considered to be on a par with Western Jet A-1 and is approved by most aircraft manufacturers.



Con el combustible JET-A1 que producen en Argentina, me parece que debiesen poder operar sin problemas el M-346FA.

Otros Jets supersónicos requerirían de logística importada, JP-8 si es motor occidental o RT si es ruso. USA se está bajando del JP-8 para usar Jet-A con aditivos y los rusos producen RT. Yo creo que si compran cazas orientales, este debiera ser un aspecto a dirigir el offset.

La otra alternativa sería ver opciones de motores que funcionen con biofuel o mezclas que imiten el JP-8.

Saludos
 
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