Red Flag 2008 y el devorador de Piedritas...!!!
- Tema iniciado MarioAr
- Fecha de inicio
S
SnAkE_OnE
en todo caso ellos aplicaron mejor una tactica, nos hicieron ir a buscarlos, si ellos venian a buscarnos a nosotros en nuestro "espacio" otro hubiera sido el cantar, se supo aprovechar de ese lado mejor el elemento
teniamos radares pero no RWR
teniamos radares pero no RWR
Nunca se llego a 1.4-a-1... De donde sacaste eso??? Se llego a 2-a-1 entre la USAF y Navy, y fue un escandalo...
El F-15 es superior, si, a un F-16, a un M-2000, a un Su-27... De eso no tengo duda. Pero que un M-2000 en manos de un piloto experto se la da a un Su, tampoco no tengo duda... :yonofui:
Las pelotas como me conviene... Se perfectamete de lo que hablo...
Los Jaguar no tenian nada de americano, eran todo 100% franco-britanico, y eran MUY baratos... Por eso los compraron... Donde vivis? te crees que la situacion economica indu era en los 70', 80's, incluso en los 90's la que es ahora? Recien a mediados de los 90's la India comenzo a tener la realidad economica que tiene ahora, y que le permite encara proyectos grandes, y pagar SdA occidentales...
PORQUE LOS PODIAN PAGAR.... Estaban embargados de SdA americanos, y los europeros eran muy caros para las cantidades que ellos necesitaban/querian... Mira ahora como estan embobados con el Rhino o el Gripen NG...
Vietnam y Corea... Con ventaja numerica del este... Y les pegaron un pesto a los mejores pilotos rusos...
BS... basta de excusas, que el avion esta degradado, que el piloto no esta bien entrenado, que les falta AEW&C. que la nena tiene fiebre, que el perro quedo afuera... Que la suegra los jodia... :yonofui: Los judios, con una gigantesca inferioirdad cauntitativa y con aviones franco-americanos, les pegaron palizas epicas a los arabes en 47, 56, 67, y 73... Recien en los 70's empezon a tener una gran ventaja tecnologica...
Por 50 años los cazas occidentales (o los SdA, si queres) les han dado por el c#lo, como dirian los gaitas, a los del Este... Una y otra vez, en todo tipo de escenario o teatro, con pilotos de uno y otro lado...
Si el sistema de combate, de armas, de entrenamiento occidental, como un todo, ha sido tan abrumadoramente superior, no es mi culpa... Que occidente sea mas profesional, mas capaz, en crear un sistema defensivo, de entrenamiento, de combate, solo habla de la superioridad conceptual que hemos tenido en casi todo aspecto con el Este...
Que han habido grandes pilotos rusos, aces, si, seguro, los humanos y sus capacidades inherentes no conocen de nacionalidad o creencias... Pero el sistema que ha creado y entrenado los mejores pilotos o militares, es sin dudas el occidental... La guerra fria no se gano de casualidad, suerte, o destino, sino por estrategia, medios, y logros, que el Este no pudo igualar, menos superar...
Son excusas de cafetin... Rebuscadas, baratas y pateticas... En un vis-a-vis, los aviones occidentales son muy superiores a los rusos, siempre lo han sido... Hoy el F-15C AESA es muy superior a cualquier Su-XX que los rusos tienen en servicio, un F-15EX AESA, a cualquier otro cazabombardero en servicio en el mundo, y el F-22 es muy superior a cualquier cosa que los rusos pongan en vuelo de aca a 20 años...
La unica verdad es la realidad...
Disiento con tu disentimiento... :sifone:
Que se haya probado la compativilidad de UN (1) Harrier en el PAL, para ver si se podia operar, con un piloto de RAF a los mandos, no es lo mismo que los franceses te den M-III y Sue con pilotos instructores para jugar de agresores y que te entrenen en aire-aire... :yonofui:
Tano, es muy discutible... Los paquistanies con una humildad de medios tremenda, les han dado una pelea excelente a los indios... Por eso siguen, porque los indues jamas lograron la superioridad real...
Una muestra mas de mis dichos, con una superioridad de medios rusos abrumadora, los indios jamas lograron una supremacia sobre Paquistan... Y Paquistan con una mezcla de medios occidentales y del Este...
los indues tambien mezcla occidentales y del este... y los que mas fueron derribado fueron los de procedencia occidental...
no todo es tan lineal ni todo es tan teorico... existen matices como todo.
iran e irak tambien es otro ejemplo... y no se puede mantener una "linea" por tal motivo.
hay de todo... como en botica.
un gran pero gran abrazo
no todo es tan lineal ni todo es tan teorico... existen matices como todo.
iran e irak tambien es otro ejemplo... y no se puede mantener una "linea" por tal motivo.
hay de todo... como en botica.
un gran pero gran abrazo
Los mas derribados fueron, obviamente, los de ataque... Por obvias razones... Pero pegale una mirada al historial de combates aire-aire ino-paquistani...
Y por supuesto que hay matices Tano, lo aclare en mi post... Pero en "The Big Picture" esta claro quien es el ganador...
mario.. .decime que ventaja saco iran contra irak en combates aire-aire?? si fuera como vos decis tendria que haber pasado por arriba a los irakies y no fue asi.... por eso, todo depende tambien de quien monte el aparato.... las maquinas , como dije, tendran ventajas marginales en algunos aspectos unos y desventajas en otros...
USA e Israel lo que siempre tubieron mejor fueron pilotos..... y el segundo.. por lejos
USA e Israel lo que siempre tubieron mejor fueron pilotos..... y el segundo.. por lejos
S
SnAkE_OnE
bueno, pero vos tambien considera las purgas de la IrAF, fueron durisimas asi como tambien cierta disponibilidad de repuestos, en todo caso fueron pocos los cosas en que si no mal recuerdo, Mirage F-1 derribo al F-14A
Wolf
Colaborador
Harrier
Totalmente de acuerdo, pero mi punto era que el harrier no era "absolutamente desconocido" como puso Compass.
Snake, te recomiendo el libro "F-14 Iranian in combat" de Osprey...
Saludos y concuerdo con Mario, la excepcion no hace la regla, los sistemas occidentales siempre han sido superiores, sobretodo con la entrada de altas tecnologias, porque? simple, mas dinero en I+D implica desarrollos superiores, y tambien la competitividad, distinto es pensar en desarrollar "algo" que al final del dia tus obreros fabricaran bien, mal o pesimo, da lo mismo, total el estado paga el sueldo igual....
Saludos
Totalmente de acuerdo, pero mi punto era que el harrier no era "absolutamente desconocido" como puso Compass.
Snake, te recomiendo el libro "F-14 Iranian in combat" de Osprey...
Saludos y concuerdo con Mario, la excepcion no hace la regla, los sistemas occidentales siempre han sido superiores, sobretodo con la entrada de altas tecnologias, porque? simple, mas dinero en I+D implica desarrollos superiores, y tambien la competitividad, distinto es pensar en desarrollar "algo" que al final del dia tus obreros fabricaran bien, mal o pesimo, da lo mismo, total el estado paga el sueldo igual....
Saludos
S
SnAkE_OnE
voy a pedir que me lo traigan en mula jeje
Marginales??? Si seguro... :smilielol5:
Amen de esta gran verdad...
Mas del 90% de los pilotos y tecnicos de la IiAF fueron literalemente, purgados... Y los pilotos irquies volaban aviones occidenteles tambien... :yonofui:
sin dudas titan, sin dudas... tambien existen otras "excepciones" como la confrontacion india/china... y cubano / sudafricana...
osea, como bien decimos, no podemos declarar que "algo es mejor a otro " (sea cual sea), cuando existen infinidad de causas que pueden variar la consecuencia.
como siempre un gustazo titan
Eso seria una verdad absoluta si la USAF/USN hubieran vencido en combate a la VVS/IA-PVO y segun recuerdo eso jamas sucedio.
Lo otro es nada mas que semantica o como dicen ahora marketing.
Saludos
Tanito, y ademas tenes el factor "humano"... Como dije, las capacidades inherentes del ser humano no conocen de nacionalidad o creencias, siempre vas a tener de un lado o del otro dotados que con un Piper se podrian bajan un Eagle...
Abrazo!!!
No entiendo, que no entiendes, y me gustaria entenderlo para hacertelo entender... :yonofui:
Uhhh... Me maree... :svengo:
No se quien dijo que en Vietnam el MiG-21 era el "State of the Art de los rusos", me parece que compararlo con los F-4 no es justo ya que se puede consirar al Su-15 como equivalente del F-4, ni hablar del MiG-25 que comenzaba a entrar en servicio.
Respecto a la realación de derribos, eso depende de que lado lo mires. En el Documental "Rusia, los Años Desconocidos: La Historia de los MiG", las fuentes rusas reclaman una relación de derribos de 4 a 1 en favor del MiG-21. Y respecto a Corea, hay pilotos sovieticos que reclaman 26 aviones, uno de ellos 16 sabre. Acá un pequeño resumen.
The following is part of the article by two Russian historians, Leonid Krylov and Yuri Tepsurkayev, about the history of air combat between the Soviet VVS and the U.S. air forces during the Korean War. The article was published in the "Mir Aviatsii ("The Aviation World") magazine in 1998 and includes a lot of information from the recently - declassified Soviet archives from that period. The article deals with the effort by the VVS to capture a working "Sabre" by forcing it to land at a Soviet airfield.
American claims of 10:1 kill ratio (or some other fantastic ratio of this sort) during the Korean war in favor of the U.S. pilots is commonly explained by the "superior" training of American pilots. It is admitted by most Western historians and, most importantly, by many American pilots themselves, that technically the MiG-15 was at least a match for the best American jet fighter of the Korean War - the F-86 "Sabre." It would be appropriate to mention that the UN air forces in Korea included many other aircraft types considerably inferior to the MiG-15.
In general, Western historians do not like to talk about why they think American pilots were the most experienced during the Korean War. There's certainly no way to support this position with facts simply because its erroneous. It is a fact that the Soviet pilots flew approximately 3.5 million combat sorties during the Second World War. This is 2-3 times more that the number of sorties flown by the U.S. pilots during this war. ["Red Phoenix", by Von Hardesty.] While the number of American W.W.II fighter aces, who shot down 20 or more aircraft, barely exceeds two dozen, the number of Soviet aces, who shot down 29 or more aircraft is well over a hundred. The number of Soviet aces credited with shooting down 20 or more aircraft during the Second World War is in hundreds. [Soviet Aces of World War 2, Hugh Morgan, Osprey aerospace, 1998]
This is a very important fact, considering that the Soviet pilots in Korea were represented by the best-of-the-best the VVS could offer. Many of the Second World War aces participated in the Korean war as pilots and commanders. This was a new era of jet aircraft, but the weapons used on aircraft were essentially the same old cannons and machine-guns taken from the propeller fighters of the W.W.II and most elements of air combat remained unchanged. Most but not all. As you will find out from the story below, W.W.II experience did not mean an automatic victory in Korea, especially when some high-ranking officials ignored warnings of experienced pilots.
There was an enormous gap is the number of experienced pilots in the US and the USSR after the Second World War. And this gap remained during the Korean War as well, allowing the Soviet VVS to attain a favorable 3.3:1 kill ratio against the UN aircraft. During the Korean War the VVS pilots flew 1,872 combat sorties and downed 1,106 US-made aircraft, of which 650 were F-86 "Sabres." In air combat over Korea against the VVS, Americans lost about two "Sabres" for every downed Soviet MiG-15. ["Russian Weapons: War and Peace," by Vladimir Babych, 1997]
During the Korean War, the best American ace, Capt. MacConnel, was credited with shooting down 16 MiG-15s, while the best Soviet ace, Capt. Sutyagin, downed 23 American aircraft. ["Duel" N 20 (42) - 21(43), 1997] The gap between Soviet and American aces remained during the Korean War: there were 40 American aces who were credited with shooting down 5 or more enemy fighters, while the number of Soviet aces with 5 or more kills was 51. ["Duel" N 20 (42) - 21(43), 1997]
The number of Soviet non-combat losses was only 10 aircraft. The number of non-combat losses, officially admitted by the US, is 945 ["The United States Air Force in Korea 1950-1953" by Robert Futrell]. This enormous number non-combat losses is a testament to the "superior" training of American pilots as well as to the attempts on the part of the US government and the military to present combat losses as "accidents." The Chinese and Korean air forces lost 231 fighters in combat, which brings the total number of MiG losses to 576 aircraft. The Americans claimed to have shot down 2,300 "Communist aircraft." [Aviation Encyclopedia, 1977, New-York] This was one of many wild claims made by the media and certain unscrupulous historians, contradicting even the USAF claims.
Later claims by the US of enemy aircraft downed during the Korean War, were revised to 976 and then further to 935 - still hundreds of aircraft more than the actual number of "Communist" aircraft downed. Americans admitted to losing a total of 1,035 aircraft, of which 816 were downed by ground fire, 147 shot down in air-to-air combat, and 72 aircraft lost to unknown causes. ["The United States Air Force in Korea 1950-1953" by Robert Futrell] Other sources put just the USAF losses at 1,144 aircraft, 1,176 killed and 386 wounded in action. [Korean-War.com web site, by Ed Evanhoe]
Respecto a la realación de derribos, eso depende de que lado lo mires. En el Documental "Rusia, los Años Desconocidos: La Historia de los MiG", las fuentes rusas reclaman una relación de derribos de 4 a 1 en favor del MiG-21. Y respecto a Corea, hay pilotos sovieticos que reclaman 26 aviones, uno de ellos 16 sabre. Acá un pequeño resumen.
The following is part of the article by two Russian historians, Leonid Krylov and Yuri Tepsurkayev, about the history of air combat between the Soviet VVS and the U.S. air forces during the Korean War. The article was published in the "Mir Aviatsii ("The Aviation World") magazine in 1998 and includes a lot of information from the recently - declassified Soviet archives from that period. The article deals with the effort by the VVS to capture a working "Sabre" by forcing it to land at a Soviet airfield.
American claims of 10:1 kill ratio (or some other fantastic ratio of this sort) during the Korean war in favor of the U.S. pilots is commonly explained by the "superior" training of American pilots. It is admitted by most Western historians and, most importantly, by many American pilots themselves, that technically the MiG-15 was at least a match for the best American jet fighter of the Korean War - the F-86 "Sabre." It would be appropriate to mention that the UN air forces in Korea included many other aircraft types considerably inferior to the MiG-15.
In general, Western historians do not like to talk about why they think American pilots were the most experienced during the Korean War. There's certainly no way to support this position with facts simply because its erroneous. It is a fact that the Soviet pilots flew approximately 3.5 million combat sorties during the Second World War. This is 2-3 times more that the number of sorties flown by the U.S. pilots during this war. ["Red Phoenix", by Von Hardesty.] While the number of American W.W.II fighter aces, who shot down 20 or more aircraft, barely exceeds two dozen, the number of Soviet aces, who shot down 29 or more aircraft is well over a hundred. The number of Soviet aces credited with shooting down 20 or more aircraft during the Second World War is in hundreds. [Soviet Aces of World War 2, Hugh Morgan, Osprey aerospace, 1998]
This is a very important fact, considering that the Soviet pilots in Korea were represented by the best-of-the-best the VVS could offer. Many of the Second World War aces participated in the Korean war as pilots and commanders. This was a new era of jet aircraft, but the weapons used on aircraft were essentially the same old cannons and machine-guns taken from the propeller fighters of the W.W.II and most elements of air combat remained unchanged. Most but not all. As you will find out from the story below, W.W.II experience did not mean an automatic victory in Korea, especially when some high-ranking officials ignored warnings of experienced pilots.
There was an enormous gap is the number of experienced pilots in the US and the USSR after the Second World War. And this gap remained during the Korean War as well, allowing the Soviet VVS to attain a favorable 3.3:1 kill ratio against the UN aircraft. During the Korean War the VVS pilots flew 1,872 combat sorties and downed 1,106 US-made aircraft, of which 650 were F-86 "Sabres." In air combat over Korea against the VVS, Americans lost about two "Sabres" for every downed Soviet MiG-15. ["Russian Weapons: War and Peace," by Vladimir Babych, 1997]
During the Korean War, the best American ace, Capt. MacConnel, was credited with shooting down 16 MiG-15s, while the best Soviet ace, Capt. Sutyagin, downed 23 American aircraft. ["Duel" N 20 (42) - 21(43), 1997] The gap between Soviet and American aces remained during the Korean War: there were 40 American aces who were credited with shooting down 5 or more enemy fighters, while the number of Soviet aces with 5 or more kills was 51. ["Duel" N 20 (42) - 21(43), 1997]
The number of Soviet non-combat losses was only 10 aircraft. The number of non-combat losses, officially admitted by the US, is 945 ["The United States Air Force in Korea 1950-1953" by Robert Futrell]. This enormous number non-combat losses is a testament to the "superior" training of American pilots as well as to the attempts on the part of the US government and the military to present combat losses as "accidents." The Chinese and Korean air forces lost 231 fighters in combat, which brings the total number of MiG losses to 576 aircraft. The Americans claimed to have shot down 2,300 "Communist aircraft." [Aviation Encyclopedia, 1977, New-York] This was one of many wild claims made by the media and certain unscrupulous historians, contradicting even the USAF claims.
Later claims by the US of enemy aircraft downed during the Korean War, were revised to 976 and then further to 935 - still hundreds of aircraft more than the actual number of "Communist" aircraft downed. Americans admitted to losing a total of 1,035 aircraft, of which 816 were downed by ground fire, 147 shot down in air-to-air combat, and 72 aircraft lost to unknown causes. ["The United States Air Force in Korea 1950-1953" by Robert Futrell] Other sources put just the USAF losses at 1,144 aircraft, 1,176 killed and 386 wounded in action. [Korean-War.com web site, by Ed Evanhoe]
