No Ken, the last on yours!
Malvinas War/ Guerra de Malvinas
- Tema iniciado Iconoclasta
- Fecha de inicio
Griffiths911
British War Veteran
Me interesa. ¿Qué misión fue esto?
KEN
I think we are ..... mareando :svengo:.....jajaja
You in your previous post described a scene of a task force, and told me that it is not the same as the SAS ...
My question is, if you know that mission was exactly that!
I think we are ..... mareando :svengo:.....jajaja
You in your previous post described a scene of a task force, and told me that it is not the same as the SAS ...
My question is, if you know that mission was exactly that!
Griffiths911
British War Veteran
Can you show me the post you refer to... 'Quote'.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Griffiths911
British War Veteran
My ship was not in the TEZ on this day. I am determined to tell you only about my experiences.
Sorry.
Ken.
Sorry.
Ken.
Griffiths911
British War Veteran
I think it was at this time we took you guys seriously. It is my conviction that the British did not understand how much you love the islands.
It seems crazy to me that this ageing MPA spent three hours plus plotting our positions and was not attacked by shars. I had read somewhere that the Neptune did spend time in the area of the Belgrano wreck so maybe the British did not want it destroyed because it could be looking for survivors. Is this a possibility?
Regards.
Ken.
It seems crazy to me that this ageing MPA spent three hours plus plotting our positions and was not attacked by shars. I had read somewhere that the Neptune did spend time in the area of the Belgrano wreck so maybe the British did not want it destroyed because it could be looking for survivors. Is this a possibility?
Regards.
Ken.
Hi Ken... my name is Matias (Mathew in Shakespeare´s language...jejejej)
It could be probably that assumption.
Neptune was pretty much out of service... they didn’t finish the war in flyable conditions. I think that could be around May they were radiated from flight line
This post could help you... http://www.zona-militar.com/foros/showthread.php?t=19244
It could be probably that assumption.
Neptune was pretty much out of service... they didn’t finish the war in flyable conditions. I think that could be around May they were radiated from flight line
This post could help you... http://www.zona-militar.com/foros/showthread.php?t=19244
The pilots said they were on course to the area of the Belgrano wreck for a while to confuse the British.
Don't have time now but later I will copy a map of the flight and you'll see that they were not very close to it.
MPA/AEW Neptune
Gentlemen.
I've got a lot of history on the Air Defence/Airborne Early Warning side of things and if you are looking for a reason that the Neptune was not engaged then maybe I can help.
Some of the Neptunes that were sold to he Argentine forces had previously been in the UK and had been used as an AEW flight using their AN/APS 20 radars. These radars were still the RAF's primary AEW radar in the Shackleton AEW2. Therefore in the back of the Taskforce command minds could have been the following.
AEW Neptune offering it's self as bait to get the SHAR's to try and attack it. Once the SHAR's were painted on radar a strike of Super Etendard's that had been
on the C130 tankers would be launched towards the origin of the SHAR's. As the Neptune was to the West of the Islands then the Carriers would have had to move much closer than the "normal" operating area, therefore exposing the critical assets to a likely hood of attack. Further back and beyond the ship radar coverage could have been a CAP of Mirage 3's, who being much closer to the mainland would not have been so fuel limited in the combats.
Because there was no AEW radar with the RN Taskforce the "picture" would have been only that of the surface ships radar, and what was beyond that coverage was open to question. As can be seen from the history of the conflict, the RN taskforce was of a very conservative mindset, prefering to keep its self intact for the actual invasion of the islands.
Caballeros.
Tengo un montón de historia en la defensa aérea / Aerotransportado de Alerta Temprana de lado las cosas y si usted está buscando una razón por la que el Neptuno no se dedican entonces quizá yo pueda ayudar.
Algunos de los Neptunos que fueron vendidas a las fuerzas argentinas que habían estado previamente en el Reino Unido y ha sido utilizado como una AEW vuelo utilizando sus AN / APS 20 radares. Estos radares de la RAF aún la principal AEW radar en la AEW2 Shackleton. Por lo tanto, en la parte de atrás del Grupo comando mente podrían haber sido los siguientes.
AEW Neptuno ofrece es libre como cebo para obtener la SHAR de intentar atacarlo. Una vez que el SHAR fueron pintados en el radar una huelga de los Super Etendard de la que habían estado esperando en la cisterna C130 sería lanzado hacia el origen de la SHAR's. Como la de Neptuno fue al oeste de las islas que luego los transportistas han tenido que pasar mucho más estrecha que la "normal" de funcionamiento, por lo tanto la exposición de los activos críticos para un probable ataque de la campana. Más atrás y más allá de la cobertura de radar de la nave podría haber sido una de las PAC del Mirage 3, que está mucho más cerca de la costa no han sido tan limitada de combustible en los combates.
Porque no había AEW radar con el Grupo de los RN "fotografía" hubiera sido sólo la de los buques de radar de la superficie, y más allá de lo que se espera que la cobertura está abierta a la pregunta. Como puede verse en la historia del conflicto, el grupo de trabajo fue de RN una mentalidad muy conservadora, prefiriendo mantener intacta su autonomía para la invasión de las islas.
Gentlemen.
I've got a lot of history on the Air Defence/Airborne Early Warning side of things and if you are looking for a reason that the Neptune was not engaged then maybe I can help.
Some of the Neptunes that were sold to he Argentine forces had previously been in the UK and had been used as an AEW flight using their AN/APS 20 radars. These radars were still the RAF's primary AEW radar in the Shackleton AEW2. Therefore in the back of the Taskforce command minds could have been the following.
AEW Neptune offering it's self as bait to get the SHAR's to try and attack it. Once the SHAR's were painted on radar a strike of Super Etendard's that had been
on the C130 tankers would be launched towards the origin of the SHAR's. As the Neptune was to the West of the Islands then the Carriers would have had to move much closer than the "normal" operating area, therefore exposing the critical assets to a likely hood of attack. Further back and beyond the ship radar coverage could have been a CAP of Mirage 3's, who being much closer to the mainland would not have been so fuel limited in the combats.Because there was no AEW radar with the RN Taskforce the "picture" would have been only that of the surface ships radar, and what was
beyond that coverage was open to question. As can be seen from the history of the conflict, the RN taskforce was of a very conservative mindset, prefering to keep its self intact for the actual invasion of the islands.Caballeros.
Tengo un montón de historia en la defensa aérea / Aerotransportado de Alerta Temprana de lado las cosas y si usted está buscando una razón por la que el Neptuno no se dedican entonces quizá yo pueda ayudar.
Algunos de los Neptunos que fueron vendidas a las fuerzas argentinas que habían estado previamente en el Reino Unido y ha sido utilizado como una AEW vuelo utilizando sus AN / APS 20 radares. Estos radares de la RAF aún la principal AEW radar en la AEW2 Shackleton. Por lo tanto, en la parte de atrás del Grupo comando mente podrían haber sido los siguientes.
AEW Neptuno ofrece es libre como cebo para obtener la SHAR de intentar atacarlo. Una vez que el SHAR fueron pintados en el radar una huelga de los Super Etendard de la que habían estado esperando en la cisterna C130 sería lanzado hacia el origen de la SHAR's. Como la de Neptuno fue al oeste de las islas que luego los transportistas han tenido que pasar mucho más estrecha que la "normal" de funcionamiento, por lo tanto la exposición de los activos críticos para un probable ataque de la campana. Más atrás y más allá de la cobertura de radar de la nave podría haber sido una de las PAC del Mirage 3, que está mucho más cerca de la costa no han sido tan limitada de combustible en los combates.
Porque no había AEW radar con el Grupo de los RN "fotografía" hubiera sido sólo la de los buques de radar de la superficie, y más allá de lo que se espera que la cobertura está abierta a la pregunta. Como puede verse en la historia del conflicto, el grupo de trabajo fue de RN una mentalidad muy conservadora, prefiriendo mantener intacta su autonomía para la invasión de las islas.
Griffiths911
British War Veteran
And didn't this mindset cost us. I've read Woodward's book. Sacrifice this and sacrifice that. He had a load on his mind but he is the type of officer I detest. Sorry, this does not help the discussion.
Ken
The mindset of certain officers has long been a problem to those actually fighting the Operation.:banghead: Rather than being given a ROE brief and an Objective and being told to get on with it, too much micromanagement takes place so opertunities are lost.
But then again from what I've seen from the site both sides of those present are not from the senior officer ranks.
Mick
Ken
La mentalidad de algunos funcionarios ha sido durante mucho tiempo un problema para los que realmente la lucha contra la Operación. En lugar de ser una breve lista de expertos y un objetivo y que le dicen que se quema bajo los pies, demasiado microgestión lleva a cabo de manera opertunities se pierden.
Pero entonces de nuevo a partir de lo que he visto desde el sitio de ambos lados de los presentes no son el oficial de mayor rango de filas.
Mick
The mindset of certain officers has long been a problem to those actually fighting the Operation.:banghead: Rather than being given a ROE brief and an Objective and being told to get on with it, too much micromanagement takes place so opertunities are lost.
But then again from what I've seen from the site both sides of those present are not from the senior officer ranks.
Mick
Ken
La mentalidad de algunos funcionarios ha sido durante mucho tiempo un problema para los que realmente la lucha contra la Operación. En lugar de ser una breve lista de expertos y un objetivo y que le dicen que se quema bajo los pies, demasiado microgestión lleva a cabo de manera opertunities se pierden.
Pero entonces de nuevo a partir de lo que he visto desde el sitio de ambos lados de los presentes no son el oficial de mayor rango de filas.
Mick
Griffiths911
British War Veteran
Mick,
I agree. Could you imagine senior officers contributing to this forum? Twenty-seven years ago we had a fight with these guys. Why today is there such distance between us?
---------- Post added at 17:05 ---------- Previous post was at 16:54 ----------
It is in the same area. Relatively?
I agree. Could you imagine senior officers contributing to this forum? Twenty-seven years ago we had a fight with these guys. Why today is there such distance between us?
---------- Post added at 17:05 ---------- Previous post was at 16:54 ----------
Here is map Juanma was talking about. Neptune was quite distance from ARA "Belgrano" area of sinking.
It is in the same area. Relatively?
kockica/juanma
Could you please ask what height the Neptune was at. Tactically it would be important.
The route of the Neptune, would to me indicate that it was being in an AEW role rather than the MPA. If the crew was looking for Surface units then why did it not continue to the south and east and so continue to find the main group of the Taskforce.
Ken
I don't think there is a distance between us and the guys on this forum. With the exception that none of us can afford to jump on a plane and go visit. Although I would like to visit with our friends, and I suspect you would as well.
-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------
kockica / manena
¿Podría preguntar qué altura se encontraba en el Neptuno. Tácticamente, sería importante.
La ruta de la de Neptuno, que me indican que se está en un AEW papel en lugar de la MPA. Si el equipo estaba buscando luego las unidades de superficie, ¿por qué no seguir el sur y el este y así seguir para encontrar el grupo principal del Grupo.
Ken
No creo que hay una distancia entre nosotros y los chicos en este foro. Con la salvedad de que ninguno de nosotros puede permitirse el lujo de subirse a un avión y visitar. Aunque me gustaría visitar con nuestros amigos, y sospecho que también.
Could you please ask what height the Neptune was at. Tactically it would be important.
The route of the Neptune, would to me indicate that it was being in an AEW role rather than the MPA. If the crew was looking for Surface units then why did it not continue to the south and east and so continue to find the main group of the Taskforce.
Ken
I don't think there is a distance between us and the guys on this forum. With the exception that none of us can afford to jump on a plane and go visit. Although I would like to visit with our friends, and I suspect you would as well.
-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------
kockica / manena
¿Podría preguntar qué altura se encontraba en el Neptuno. Tácticamente, sería importante.
La ruta de la de Neptuno, que me indican que se está en un AEW papel en lugar de la MPA. Si el equipo estaba buscando luego las unidades de superficie, ¿por qué no seguir el sur y el este y así seguir para encontrar el grupo principal del Grupo.
Ken
No creo que hay una distancia entre nosotros y los chicos en este foro. Con la salvedad de que ninguno de nosotros puede permitirse el lujo de subirse a un avión y visitar. Aunque me gustaría visitar con nuestros amigos, y sospecho que también.
Trap One,
Here is part of testimony given by one of crew member from that "Neptune":
"Between the initial contact and 10:30 we did some penetrations to this British force, closing ranged up to 60 miles, always under the radar listening to the ECM and with and strict radioelectric silence.
When we where at that distance we applied maximum speed, at that time flying between 50 and 100 feet and then we climbed very fast to 3000 feets, emitted only one time with the radar, confirmed the contact and the descended quickly with abrupt changes of course to avoid being intercepted by Harriers."
Hope this gives you some answers.
Here is part of testimony given by one of crew member from that "Neptune":
"Between the initial contact and 10:30 we did some penetrations to this British force, closing ranged up to 60 miles, always under the radar listening to the ECM and with and strict radioelectric silence.
When we where at that distance we applied maximum speed, at that time flying between 50 and 100 feet and then we climbed very fast to 3000 feets, emitted only one time with the radar, confirmed the contact and the descended quickly with abrupt changes of course to avoid being intercepted by Harriers."
Hope this gives you some answers.
Trap One and Ken @ Griffith 911
Many of us would like to meet with you , as you said we can't afford for the moment an Airline Ticket - Let's be patient we will all be able to meet and as friends drink a good beer -
Regards to all of You from all of Us -
Many of us would like to meet with you , as you said we can't afford for the moment an Airline Ticket - Let's be patient we will all be able to meet and as friends drink a good beer -
Regards to all of You from all of Us -
kockica.
Thanks for the information, from what you are saying the crew are doing MPA tasking and although the height says MPA the course still says to me "bait". Yes I can see the dog legs and the minimal use of radar to throw off dectection would be very good to advoid the SHAR's but the big dog leg to the south to me should have been to the SE or ESE. Then the ESM would have helped them find the main group of the Taskforce. I don't know if you are ESM/Radar operator but the Neptune could have stepped down/around the Radar that the ships were using. as the ESM detection is far less than required for Radar dectection.
reydelcastillo
Yes it would be nice to visit and the only arguement to be what is the best beer.
So till then :cheers2
kockica.
Gracias por la información, de lo que está diciendo la tripulación están haciendo tareas de APM y, aunque la altura dice SM el curso aún me dice "cebo". Sí que puedo ver el perro de las piernas y la mínima utilización de radares para deshacerse dectection sería muy bueno para la advoid SHAR, pero el gran perro de la pierna hacia el sur para mí debería haber sido a la SE o ESE. Entonces el manejo ambientalmente racional habría ayudado a encontrar el grupo principal del Grupo. No sé si está ESM / operador de radar, pero el Neptuno podría haber dimitido / todo el radar que los buques estaban utilizando. como el manejo ambientalmente racional de detección es muy inferior a la requerida para dectection radar.
reydelcastillo
Sí que sería bueno para visitar y el único argumento para ser lo que es la mejor cerveza.
Así que hasta entonces
::cheers2:
Thanks for the information, from what you are saying the crew are doing MPA tasking and although the height says MPA the course still says to me "bait". Yes I can see the dog legs and the minimal use of radar to throw off dectection would be very good to advoid the SHAR's but the big dog leg to the south to me should have been to the SE or ESE. Then the ESM would have helped them find the main group of the Taskforce. I don't know if you are ESM/Radar operator but the Neptune could have stepped down/around the Radar that the ships were using. as the ESM detection is far less than required for Radar dectection.
reydelcastillo
Yes it would be nice to visit and the only arguement to be what is the best beer.
So till then :cheers2
kockica.
Gracias por la información, de lo que está diciendo la tripulación están haciendo tareas de APM y, aunque la altura dice SM el curso aún me dice "cebo". Sí que puedo ver el perro de las piernas y la mínima utilización de radares para deshacerse dectection sería muy bueno para la advoid SHAR, pero el gran perro de la pierna hacia el sur para mí debería haber sido a la SE o ESE. Entonces el manejo ambientalmente racional habría ayudado a encontrar el grupo principal del Grupo. No sé si está ESM / operador de radar, pero el Neptuno podría haber dimitido / todo el radar que los buques estaban utilizando. como el manejo ambientalmente racional de detección es muy inferior a la requerida para dectection radar.
reydelcastillo
Sí que sería bueno para visitar y el único argumento para ser lo que es la mejor cerveza.
Así que hasta entonces
::cheers2:
2-P-111
Colaborador
That's wrong. Neptunes continued flying several months after the war.
Eso no es correcto. Los Neptune continuaron volando varios meses después de la guerra.
---------- Post added at 08:04 ---------- Previous post was at 07:32 ----------
2-P-112 Radar had a lot of electronic problems during the flight. That's probably one of the reasons why it didn't continue searching the rest of the fleet. Another could be, as juanma said, a try to avoid interception. SHars were feared. Inside a 200 knot big plane margins for scape are quite small.
El radar del 2-P-112 tenía gran cantidad de problemas electrónicos durante el vuelo. Esa es probablemente una de las razones por las que no continuaron buscando el resto de la fuerza de tareas. Otra puede ser, como juanma dijo, el intento de evitar una intercepción. Los SHars eran temidos. Dentro de un avión grande de 200 nudos los margenes de escape son bastante reducidos.
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