Malvinas War/ Guerra de Malvinas

[Marcantilan]

Marcantilan

Good question, and I've no imediate answer. Will ask and see what I can find out.

Mick

Thanks a lot Mick!

 

[Juanma]

There is sadly very little in the English language about the Argentine experiences of 1982. There are some exceptions that are now more widely available, Iluminados por el fuego, with English subtitles is an excellent example. I was incredibly moved by this movie.

First of all Welcome,
I guess you have many stories to tell from all the places you've been and personally I look forward to heard them some time.
Please don't give that movie much importance as the makers didn't wanted to give it an historical vision, it was more "political" (as armed forces bad, poor teenagers)

Luckly for us whe have veterans that can tell us the lies that this movie tells


---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Antes que nada, bienvenido.
Supongo que tenes muchas historias que contar de los lugares en que estuviste. Personalmente, espero poder escucharlas algun dia.
Por favor no le des mucha importancia a esa pelicula ya que los realizadores no querian darle una vision historica sino una mas "politica" (fuerzas armadas malas, pobres adolecentes)

Afortunadamente para nosotros, tenemos muchos veteranos en el foro que nos pueden decir las mentiras que dice esta película

 

[Marcantilan]

Marcantilan,

¿Did the commander tell you the conditions in which the Radars were operating?

Come on, those planes could never even climb to an air search alttitude without being blown out of the sky. We're lucky (and some of us lucky to be alive) that the whole squadron came back home.

Question, question: ¿What did Perez Roca tell you about the 3rd of May?

Hi 2-P-111

Really, the conversation was about the AN/APS-20 (Neptune radar) & AN/APS-88 (Tracker radar) detection ranges.

Then moved to AN/APS-20 AEW capabilities, when the Squadron Commander (not Perez Roca, other serving Sq commander during the war) told me that, on pre-war exercises, always detected ultra-low A4Q flights with its little unknow AEW mode.

About the May 3 "Neptune vs. Conqueror" incident, I´m still trying to contact the pilot or co-pilot of the plane.

But I also talked with a former Conqueror crewmember, who has some valid points about a false contact from the Neptune side. The bottom line: I´m still checking the facts...

Stay tuned!

---------- Post added at 10:39 ---------- Previous post was at 10:37 ----------

Hello, I’m new to this board, but I have taken the time to read this thread very, very carefully and am gratified to see this level of understanding between former foes.

I’m indebted to Trap One, who has sponsored me to join in this discussion. Thank you.

I’m a former Sergeant in the British Army, and although I didn’t serve during the Conflict in 1982, I joined 2 years later in 1984, I went on to know many British Veterans of that time.

My Military experience was as a UN Peace Keeper in Cyprus, with a brief visit to Lebanon in 1987. The First Gulf War, which you probably know as Desert Storm. Northern Ireland, before and after the cease fire of 1994 and of course the Cold War in West Germany in the late eighties, although that mainly involved drinking lots of beer and partying a lot. And a few other places that are insignificant.

I, as a soldier, had a natural interest in the War between our two countries, and as you can understand it tended to be from the British side. I read all the books and articles and talked with many people who were there. Of course as time moves on and you get the bigger picture you want to find out more about both sides of the story.

There is sadly very little in the English language about the Argentine experiences of 1982. There are some exceptions that are now more widely available, Iluminados por el fuego, with English subtitles is an excellent example. I was incredibly moved by this movie.

A few years ago I met a beautiful woman from Buenos Aires, who I am now proud to call my wife. She gave me a small understanding of the passion the Malvinas evokes in Argentines. This spurred my interest in finding out more about the Argentine soldiers’ story.

Then yesterday I found a link on a British Army website I use, to this discussion. The rest of my day was lost as I was absorbed by the thread. You lot owe my company half a days wages.

I know the translators will have to work on this, so won’t bore them with anymore for now.

Can I finish by saying it’s a privilege to be able to join in this discussion and I hope I can add something constructive.

Welcome Sir!

 

[nazcasteve]

Hello again to all,

it's been a while since I checked in, but have just finished reading through all the lastest posts with much interest. Reading about flights over the Belgrano wreck zone made me wonder about another topic - the ARA Alfarez Sobral incident. Is there anyone on here who was involved in that, or knows any of the surviving crew members? I would very much like to talk to them about what happened that night and in particular, their SAR efforts for the crew of Canberra B-110.

Saludos a todos,

Steve

 

[2-P-111]

Hi Steve

I knew Olivieri's son at College. His father died when Sobral was attacked. If you want I can contact him.

Conocí al hijo de Olivieri en la Universidad. Su padre murió cuando el Sobral fue atacado. Si quiere lo puedo contactar

 

[Juanma]

Maybe we can make a topic about it.
It would be interesting to "read" the other side of the coin.
As our version is that the Sobral was attacked while doing a SAR mission with navigation lights on.

----------------------------------------------------

Tal vez podemos hacer un tema sobre el mismo.
Sería interesante "leer" la otra cara de la moneda.
Nuestra versión es que el Sobral fue atacada mientras realiza una misión de la SAR con las luces de navegación.

 

[yeyo]

On April 22 (yesterday), Capitan de Navio (RE) Hector Elias Bonzo suffered a heart attack while driving his car, and past away.
He was the commander of the Crucero ARA General Belgrano back in 1982 when it was sink by the nuclear submarine Conqueror.
He spent all his time since that day, taking care and protecting the families of the ARA General Belgrano crew.
Rest in peace Sir, Mision accomplished.

PD: Here are many peoples that knew that man better than me, please tell us something about him.

Yeyo

--------------------------------------------------------------------
El 22 de Abril (Ayer), el Capitan de Navio (RE) Hector Elias Bonzo sufrio un ataque cardiaco, y fallecio.
El era el Comandante del Crucero ARA General Belgrano en 1982 cuando fue hundido por el submarino nuclear Conqueror.
Empleo todo su tiempo desde aquel dia, en cuidar y proteger a las familias de los miembros de la tripulacion del ARA General Belgrano.
Descanse en Paz Señor, Mision cumplida.

PD: aqui hay mucha gente que conocio a ese hombre mejor que yo, por favor cuentenos algo sobre el.

Yeyo

 

[nazcasteve]

Maybe we can make a topic about it.
It would be interesting to "read" the other side of the coin.
As our version is that the Sobral was attacked while doing a SAR mission with navigation lights on.

----------------------------------------------------

Tal vez podemos hacer un tema sobre el mismo.
Sería interesante "leer" la otra cara de la moneda.
Nuestra versión es que el Sobral fue atacada mientras realiza una misión de la SAR con las luces de navegación.

Indeed, I have often wondered about the incident. All I know is what I read on Wikipedia about it being approached by a 826 Sqn Sea King, which was then fired on:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_Alferez_Sobral

I would love to hear from the Sea King crew as to their version of it, and whether they felt the attack was unprovoked or not. I am not sure if the Sea King was from HMS Coventry or Glasgow, and whether they were aware of possible SAR efforts on the Argentine side. Whatever the case, the incident escalated the situation to involve the Sea Lynxes.

Damage to the ship in photos here: http://nafts.org/sobral.htm

One can only wonder if the downed crew might have been rescued otherwise. A tragic affair really. 2-P-111, only contact your friend if you if think it appropriate, obviously this is probably a sensitive matter for him and I wouldn't want to unduly upset him.

Steve

----

Originalmente publicado por nazcasteve Ver post
De hecho, a menudo me he preguntado sobre el incidente. Lo único que sé es lo que he leído sobre él en Wikipedia se acercó un 826 Sqn Sea King, que fue despedido en:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_Alferez_Sobral

Me encantaría escuchar a la tripulación como el Rey del Mar a su versión del mismo, y si a su juicio el ataque fue sin provocación o no. No estoy seguro de si el Rey era de Mar HMS Coventry o Glasgow, y si eran conscientes de los posibles esfuerzos de la RAE en el lado argentino. En cualquier caso, el incidente intensificó la situación de involucrar a la mar linces.

Daños al buque en las fotos aquí: http://nafts.org/sobral.htm

Uno sólo puede preguntarse si la caída podría haber sido la tripulación rescató a otra cosa. Un asunto realmente trágico. 2-P-111, sólo en contacto con su amigo, si usted si cree oportuno, evidentemente, esta es probablemente una cuestión delicada para él y no quisiera perturbar indebidamente él.

Steve

 

[Griffiths911]

On April 22 (yesterday), Capitan de Navio (RE) Hector Elias Bonzo suffered a heart attack while driving his car, and past away.
He was the commander of the Crucero ARA General Belgrano back in 1982 when it was sink by the nuclear submarine Conqueror.
He spent all his time since that day, taking care and protecting the families of the ARA General Belgrano crew.
Rest in peace Sir, Mision accomplished.

PD: Here are many peoples that knew that man better than me, please tell us something about him.

Yeyo

--------------------------------------------------------------------
El 22 de Abril (Ayer), el Capitan de Navio (RE) Hector Elias Bonzo sufrio un ataque cardiaco, y fallecio.
El era el Comandante del Crucero ARA General Belgrano en 1982 cuando fue hundido por el submarino nuclear Conqueror.
Empleo todo su tiempo desde aquel dia, en cuidar y proteger a las familias de los miembros de la tripulacion del ARA General Belgrano.
Descanse en Paz Señor, Mision cumplida.

PD: aqui hay mucha gente que conocio a ese hombre mejor que yo, por favor cuentenos algo sobre el.

Yeyo

You are with your men. Rest peacefully Captain Bonzo.

----

Usted está con sus hombres. Capitán Bonzo descanse en paz

 

[Pata1]

Pequeñas correcciones en traducción

Indeed, I have often wondered about the incident. All I know is what I read on Wikipedia about it being approached by a 826 Sqn Sea King, which was then fired on:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_Alferez_Sobral

I would love to hear from the Sea King crew as to their version of it, and whether they felt the attack was unprovoked or not. I am not sure if the Sea King was from HMS Coventry or Glasgow, and whether they were aware of possible SAR efforts on the Argentine side. Whatever the case, the incident escalated the situation to involve the Sea Lynxes.

Damage to the ship in photos here: http://nafts.org/sobral.htm

One can only wonder if the downed crew might have been rescued otherwise. A tragic affair really. 2-P-111, only contact your friend if you if think it appropriate, obviously this is probably a sensitive matter for him and I wouldn't want to unduly upset him.

Steve

----

Originalmente publicado por nazcasteve Ver post
De hecho, a menudo me he preguntado sobre el incidente. Lo único que sé es lo que he leído sobre él en Wikipedia se acercó un 826 Sqn Sea King, que fue despedido (SE LE DISPARO) en:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_Alferez_Sobral

Me encantaría escuchar a la tripulación como el Rey del Mar a su versión del mismo (LA VERSION DE LOS TRIPULANTES DEL SEA KING), y si a su juicio el ataque fue sin provocación o no. No estoy seguro de si el Rey era de Mar (SEA KING) HMS Coventry o Glasgow, y si eran conscientes de los posibles esfuerzos de RAE (RESCATE) en el lado argentino. En cualquier caso, el incidente intensificó la situación de (AL) involucrar a la mar linces (LOS SEA LINXS).

Daños al buque en las fotos aquí: http://nafts.org/sobral.htm

Uno sólo puede preguntarse si la caída podría haber sido la tripulación rescató a otra cosa (SI LA TRIPULACION PODRIA HABER SIDO RESCATADA DE OTRA FORMA). Un asunto realmente trágico. 2-P-111, sólo en contacto (CONTACTE) con su amigo, si usted si cree oportuno, evidentemente, esta es probablemente una cuestión delicada para él y no quisiera (MOLESTARLO)perturbar indebidamente él.

Steve

 

[Trap One]

Enrique
Have asked in a number ofplaces and have had no reply about the question you raised about the Trackers and attempted intercepts on them.
As far as I'm aware very few missions were launched by the Shars against the sort of targets that the Trackers and the Neptunes represented. In fact the only sort of scramble that I can find documented was the mission that led to loss of 2 of the Shars. Most if not all of the intercepts were conducted by airborne aircraft either from CAP against the stikers, or in transit when sent against the Low Level C130's.

Mick

Enrique
Han pedido en varias ofplaces y no han tenido respuesta sobre la cuestión que ha planteado sobre el intento de Rastreadores y de las intersecciones de ellos.
Por lo que yo conozco muy pocas misiones de puesta en marcha por el Shars contra el tipo de objetivos que los rastreadores y los Neptunos representados. De hecho, la única especie de lucha que se puede encontrar documentado la misión que llevó a la pérdida de 2 de la Shars. La mayoría, si no todas las intersecciones se realizaron por el aire de aeronaves, bien en contra de la PAC stikers, o en tránsito cuando envió contra el bajo nivel de la C130.

Mick

 

[Marcantilan]

Enrique
Have asked in a number ofplaces and have had no reply about the question you raised about the Trackers and attempted intercepts on them.
As far as I'm aware very few missions were launched by the Shars against the sort of targets that the Trackers and the Neptunes represented. In fact the only sort of scramble that I can find documented was the mission that led to loss of 2 of the Shars. Most if not all of the intercepts were conducted by airborne aircraft either from CAP against the stikers, or in transit when sent against the Low Level C130's.

Mick

Mick,

Thanks for the reply.

From this side, I will ask some Tracker drivers about what they think were "close encounters".

Besides that, Do you have any knowledge about a joint RAF/RN operation to drop supplies and stuff to HMS Splendid, where she was east of the islands on mid May?

And the last one, what about soviet boats in the area?

Thanks a lot!

Cheers!

 

[Jualbo]

I found a mention to an inform about british subs at Malvinas:
"Royal Navy, A Global Force, Vice-Admiral Sir Tim McClement"
http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/462-4902.aspx
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1931140/posts

And the accidental bombing of HMS Valiant:
http://www.thenewscentre.co.uk/Malvinas/commande.htm
Anybody knows the date and place in which happened?
There is also a submarine incident that involved HMS Avenger. In early june it´s believed they hit a submarine metalic object. Perhaps floating debris?
There was an incident with a suposed periscope close to Ascension island. It was believed a soviet nuclear powered submarine.

Greetings

--------------------------------------------------------------
Encontré una mención sobre los submarinos británicos en Malvinas
"Royal Navy, A Global Force, Vice-Admiral Sir Tim McClement"
http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/462-4902.aspx
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1931140/posts

Y el bombardeo accidental del HMS Valiant:
http://www.thenewscentre.co.uk/Malvinas/commande.htm
¿Alguien sabe la fecha y el lugar en que ocurrió?

Hay también un incidente que implicó a la HMS Avenger. A principios de junio se cree que golpeó un objeto metálico submarino. ¿Quizás restos flotantes?

Hubo un incidente con un supuesto periscopio cerca de la isla Ascensión. Se cree que era un submarino de propulsión nuclear soviético.

Saludos

 

[Marcantilan]

HMS Valiant arrived on station on May 16, so the incident happened after that. By the way, all 5 Brit SSNs were "bombed" with jettissoned ordenance.

About Soviet boats in south atlantic waters, I´m still asking questions about it. Not much people have answers about it.

Lastly, Tim McClement is not an stranger to the war: he was (if I´m not wrong) XO of HMS Conqueror at the time.

I know he was in a daring boat (she operated inside San Matias Gulf!!!!) but no nuc (before or now) could operate in the 12 miles limit and not be discovered. I´m not think he is lying: just exagerating a little his point.

For example, in early May, HMS Spartan was operating near Puerto Belgrano (trying to catch the carrier) but 1) just closed to land at night and 2) was counter detected at least twice.


Traducción:
HMS Valiant llegó a estación el 16 de mayo, por lo que el incidente ocurrió después de eso. Por cierto, todos los 5 Brit SSN fueron "bombardeado" con jettissoned ordenance.

Acerca de barcos soviéticos en aguas del Atlántico Sur, todavía estoy haciendo preguntas sobre ellos. Mucha gente no tiene respuestas al respecto.

Por último, Tim McClement no es un extraño a la guerra: era (si no me equivoco) XO de HMS Conqueror en el momento.

Sé que estaba en un barco atrevido (que opera dentro del Golfo San Matías !!!!) pero no NUC (antes o ahora) podría operar en el límite de 12 millas y no ser descubiertos. No me parece que es mentira: sólo exagerando un poco su punto.

Por ejemplo, a principios de mayo, el HMS Spartan operaba cerca de Puerto Belgrano (tratando de ***** el transporte), pero 1) Sólo se acercaba a la tierra por la noche y 2) Se lo contra - detectó al menos dos veces.

 

[Griffiths911]

For example, in early May, HMS Spartan was operating near Puerto Belgrano (trying to catch the carrier) but 1) just closed to land at night and 2) was counter detected at least twice.

It could be said that she operated very successfully within the 12nm limit. Detected but not attacked with any success and certainly deterred the Argentine fleet (overall) from venturing out to attack British surface combatants.

Traducción:
Se puede decir que operó con mucho éxito dentro del límite de 12nm. Detectado pero no atacado con ningún éxito y sin duda disuadió a la flota argentina (general) de aventurarse y salir a atacar a los combatientes británicos de superficie.

 

[bagre]

hi ken
w a about the epaulettes, i'm very bussy and d'nt about you and jorge.
warm regards
bagre

hola ken
que sabes del tema de las paletas? estoy muy ocupado y no se nada acerca tuyo y de jorge.
calidos saludos
bagre

 

[Griffiths911]

They are ready to go. I want to write a letter to go with the items, you may not understand but I so desperately want to part with them but am finding it hard to do so. I would like to send them on my birthday (4 de mayo).


Traducción:
Están listos para ir. Quiero escribir una carta para acompañar los items, quizás usted no lo entienda, pero tan desesperadamente quiero participar con ellos pero me resulta difícil hacerlo. Me gustaría enviarlos en mi cumpleaños (4 de mayo).

 

[bagre]

hi ken
your have a high compromise with these object, you need leave on past, you need a little step to your warrior mind spiritual comfort.
big hugh for a former enemy
bagre
hola ken
tenes un alto compromiso con esos objetos, necesitas dejarlos en el pasado, necesitas ese pequeño paso para confortar tu mente guerrera.
un gran abrazo de un antiguo enemigo
bagre

 

[Jualbo]

Hi Ken:
I found this interesting text posted by Jonathan Clarke, 9 years ago. It´s about 13th june night incident we have discussed previously:
http://www.falklandswar.org.uk/requests.php

A Possible Blue-on-Blue Missile Incident
The October [2000] issue of the United States Naval Institute Proceedings has an article by Capt. Mike Potter USNR which will doubtless be of interest to you. The article is on pages 96-101 and titled "Blue on blue in the Malvinas". In it he argues that the missile was a sea dart fired deliberately by Exeter at Penelope and Baltic Ferry. His case is based on open literature (mainly Brown, Woodward, the FAA web page, Ethel and Price, and Burden.

He argues that at the time Cardiff was on station N of Stanley, Exeter NE of Stanley, and Penelope + Baltic Ferry further NE of Exeter and E of Cardiff. Minerva and Intrepid were off the S tip of E Malvinas. Between 0120 and 0140Z 2 Canberras and 2 Mirages head E past Minerva and Intrepid, Canberra Baco 2 and the Mirages head N towards their target of Pt Harriett House (properly Estancia House) approximately due south of Pt Stanley, Baco 1 continues E for some distance before turning NW towards Estancia House. On the way in 1 Mirage (Sanchez) turns NE towards Pt Stanley. At 0144Z Cardiff fires a single SeaDart at the Mirage, which missed and exploded at the end of its run (unlikely) or exploded prematurely. Sanchez at 0407Z sees another sea dart climb past him at 15,000 feet. About the same time the Canberras independently bomb their target (without damage, it was unoccupied). They both turn S to return. Baco 1 is hit at 40,000' by a seadart at 0149Z and crashes. Potter links this missile with the one seen by Sanchez. Exeter claimed the Canberra whereas Cardiff claimed its target was a Mirage. Penelope saw its missile coming from a SW direction just above the sea at 0148Z.

If this attack actually happened along the lines suggested in the article, there are many interesting questions. Why did Exeter identified Penelope and Baltic Ferry as hostile?

Why did Exeter assign them a higher priority than the 2 Mirages and 1 Canberra (Exeter had already shot down 1 Canberra) to the SE?

Were they identified as ships or aircraft? Were Penelope and Exeter's IFF operational? When did Exeter actually realise her error?

The missile (according to Brown's history) is supposed to have either ditched or exploded. If it was a sea dart it was too fast (Mach 3) to have been damaged by Penelope. Was this the result of sea dart self destructing on command, self destructing automatically because it had flown past the target and gone ballistic, or was it dumped into the sea on command?

Independent accounts of the war (e.g. Ethel and Price, Burden et al) say the Canberra was shot down by Exeter. Brown and Woodward, who wrote later, each say that it was Cardiff and don't mention Exeter at all. Woodward does not mention Penelope either. Was this a deliberate attempt to muddy the waters and obscure the blue on blue incident?


What do you think about the possitions of ships described here? I supose you disagree about Exeter involvement and other Sea Darts launchings. Which could be the origin of Exeter involvement in the action by many air historicians? Perhaps one and the others were incestious?
Regards

Traducción:
Hola Ken:
He encontrado este interesante texto publicado por Jonathan Clarke, hace 9 años. Se trata de 13 de junio noche de incidentes que hemos discutido previamente:
http://www.falklandswar.org.uk/requests.php

Posible azul-azul en Incidente con misiles
El mes de octubre [de 2000] la cuestión del Instituto de Procedimientos Navales de los Estados Unidos tiene un artículo del Capitán Mike Potter USNR que sin duda será de interés para usted. El artículo está en las páginas 96-101, y se titula "Azul sobre azul en las Malvinas". En ella sostiene que el misil fue un Sea Dart disparado deliberadamente por el Exeter a la Penélope y el Báltic Ferry. Su caso se basa en la literatura abierta (principalmente Brown, Woodward, página web de la FAA, Ethel y Price, y Burden.

Sostiene que en ese momento la Cardiff estaba en la estación N de Stanley, Exeter NE de Stanley, y Penélope + Báltic Ferry más al NE Exeter y E de Cardiff. Minerva e Intrepid fuera de la punta S de E Malvinas. Entre 0120 y 0140Z 2 Canberras y 2 Mirages dirigiéndose al E pasan a Minerva y Intrepid, Canberra Baco 2 y Mirages encabezan hacia el N, a su objetivo de Pt Harriett House (Casa de la Estancia correctamente) aproximadamente hacia el sur de Pt Stanley, Baco 1 sigue al E una cierta distancia antes de girar NW hacia la Estancia House. En el camino 1 Mirage (Sánchez) se vuelve hacia el NE, a Pt Stanley. La Cardiff, dispara 0144Z un solo SeaDart hacia el Mirage, que se perdió y explotó al final de su carrera (poco probable) o explotó prematuramente. Sánchez ve en otro SeaDart a las 0407Z en ascenso, pasando a 15.000 pies. En ese mismo tiempo, los Canberras bombardean independientemente sus objetivo (sin daños, estaban desocupados). Ambos giran al S para la vuelta. Baco 1 está en 40.000 y es alcanzado por un seadart a las 0149Z y se estrella. Potter vincula este misil con el visto por Sánchez. Exeter reclamó el Canberra mientras la Cardiff alegó que su objetivo era un Mirage. Penélope vio sus misiles procedentes de una dirección SW justo por encima del mar en 0148Z.

Si este ataque que ocurrió en realidad en las líneas sugeridas en el artículo, hay muchas cuestiones interesantes. ¿Por qué la Exeter identificó a la Penélope y el Báltic Ferrys como hostil?

¿Por qué Exeter le asignó una prioridad más alta que la de 2 Mirage y 1 Canberra (Exeter ya había derribado 1 Canberra) al SE?

Fueron identificados como buques o aviones? Estaban operativos los IFF de la Penélope y Exeter? ¿Cuándo realmente se da cuenta la Exeter de su error?

El misil (de acuerdo con la historia de Brown) se supone que ha impactado o explotado. Si se trata de un Sea Dart era demasiado rápido (Mach 3) para haber sido dañado por Penélope. Este fue el resultado de la auto destrucción del Sea Dart por comando, auto destrucción automáticamente porque había volado más allá del objetivo y se ha vuelto balístico, o cayó en el mar por comando?

Narradores Independientes de la guerra (por ejemplo, Ethel y Price, y Burden y otros) dicen que el Canberra fue derribado por el Exeter. Brown y Woodward, que escribieron más tarde, cada uno dice que fue la Cardiff y al Exeter no lo mencionan en absoluto. Woodward no menciona tampoco a la Penélope. Este fue un intento deliberado de embarrar las aguas y oscurecer el incidente azul sobre azul?


¿Qué piensa de la posiciones de los buques que se describen aquí? Supongo que usted no está de acuerdo sobre la participación de Exeter y otros lanzamientos de Sea Dart. Que podría ser el origen de la participación del Exeter en la acción que muchos historiadores dan? Quizás uno y los demás fueron intencionados?
Saludos

 

[Griffiths911]

I am in touch with a crewman who was in Penelope at the time of this incident. They (Penelope) are convinced that an Israeli missile was fired at them by on of the Mirage fighters and what is even more bizarre they think it was a ‘Gabriel’. I am convinced that the crew of Penelope saw something but it was probably a stray chaff rocket or something like it. Some think it was a stray Seacat?

As for the positions of the ships, I think it is just about right with the exception of one ship. HMS Exeter was at least 100nm to the NE acting as picket for the CBG.

One Seadart missile was fired by HMS Cardiff at what they thought was a formation of Mirage fighters. Cardiff came to this conclusion because one of the Mirage aircraft was transmitting its radar and this was detected by Cardiff giving us the first indication of the inbound enemy formation. It is sadly ironic that the aircraft that were tasked to protect the bombers actually gave us early warning of their position. In Cardiff, we had lots of time to acquire and fire our missile.

What Penelope saw will remain a mystery. It certainly was not a Seadart fired by Exeter.

Traducción:
Estoy en contacto con un tripulante que estaba en la Penélope en el momento de este incidente. Ellos (Penélope) están convencidos de que un misil israelí fue disparado contra ellos desde un caza Mirage y lo que es aún más extraño, piensa que se trataba de un 'Gabriel'. Estoy convencido de que la tripulación de Penélope vio algo, pero probablemente fue un cohete extraviado por el chaff o algo parecido. Algunos piensan que se trata de un Seacat extraviado?

En cuanto a las posiciones de los buques, creo que es justo, con la excepción de un buque. HMS Exeter 100nm era al menos a la NE en calidad de piquete de la CBG.

Un misil Seadart fue disparado por HMS Cardiff, en lo que creía que era una formación de cazas Mirage. Cardiff, llegó a esta conclusión porque uno de los aviones Mirage fue la transmisión de su radar y este fue detectado por Cardiff, que nos da la primera indicación de entrada de la formación del enemigo. Es tristemente irónico que la aeronave que se encarga de proteger a los atacantes en realidad nos dio la alerta temprana de su posición. En Cardiff, hemos tenido mucho tiempo para adquirir y lanzar a nuestros misiles.

lo que vio la Penélope seguirá siendo un misterio. Ciertamente no fue un Seadart disparado por el Exeter.