Futuro Fuerza de Submarinos
- Tema iniciado jotabe
- Fecha de inicio
Porque no ir por la clase Riachuelo acaso no esta para su exportación? o ir por una asociación Argentino-Brasileña para el desarrollo en conjunto? por otro lado los S-80 estaría vetados para nuestra armada no? y no me refiero al presupuesto si no a su procedencia.
Necesitamos algo que podamos tener y usar en el corto plazo.
El mercado del usado es lo mas cercano. Nuevo es a mediano/largo plazo.
El mercado del usado es lo mas cercano. Nuevo es a mediano/largo plazo.
Estimado Gandolfini, creo que su sugerencia en el caso de una decisión "real del Estado Argentino" en obtener un submarino nuevo y moderno para la Armada Argentina, la opción classe "Riachuelo" no solo sería la más lógica en un contexto de integración regional, sino también la más segura y rápida.
Ya fue mencionado por un ministro de defensa brasileño anterior que en caso de un cliente de exportación antes de la finalización del PROSUB, sería posible asignar una de las 4 unidades (ahora 3 o 2) que están en construcción iniciales con las adaptaciones necesarias por parte del cliente.
Además del beneficio innegable de una mayor integración regional en una área sensible y de interés común que és la Disuasión del Atlántico Sur, existen tambien los beneficios de escala logística, la capacitación conjunta y todo esto hecho en el vecindario.
PD: Me parece que la opción S-80 incluso sería motivo de críticas por parte de quienes siempre cuestionan las inversiones en defensa en nuestras sociedades.
Elegir un proyecto marcado por fallas, retrasos y errores técnicos graves exactamente para reemplazar el sistema de armas que sufrió una tragedia reciente... sería, por decir lo menimo, controvertido.
Saludos cordiales.
Última edición:
Este hilo ya se parece al del avión que pudo ser, no dudo que nos hacen falta los subnarinos, al igual que aviones está fuera de toda discusión pero, entendamos que no están dadas las condiciones economicas, es muuuy lamentable
Si es por ver qué se podría hipotéticamente ok, ahora, visto el estado económico en el cual está inmerso el país, ...... lo veo verde muy verde, y lamentablemente por años, salvó que la cláusula secreta por entrega de las tierras a los chinos, contemple una contra prestacion por material bélico,de distinto orden o encontremos 10 vacas difuntas
Si es por ver qué se podría hipotéticamente ok, ahora, visto el estado económico en el cual está inmerso el país, ...... lo veo verde muy verde, y lamentablemente por años, salvó que la cláusula secreta por entrega de las tierras a los chinos, contemple una contra prestacion por material bélico,de distinto orden o encontremos 10 vacas difuntas
Para comprar usado .. prefiero MLU al TR toda la vida.
Aún asi, de brasil, me gustaría los U209 ..lástima que no nos venden ni loco los Mk48....asi que las consolas americanas de primera línea que tienen, no van a servir de mucho. Lo mismo con sistemas Europeos de los PROSUB...los Franceses no nos quisieron vender el SM39 en varias oportunidades..mira si nos van a vender los componentes y torpedos modernos.
Puede ser que el interés del mar puede venir mas asociado por el tema de las vías de comunicación?
Si, pero esas vías tienen que ser útiles para algo.
Técnicamente costeros por el uso que le dan los noruegos. En ejercicios internacionales tuvieron que abandonar la seguridad de los fiordos, y mal no les fue...
Ula Class Submarines
CREW
21
BUILDER
Thyssen Nordseewerke (TKMS)
OPERATOR
Royal Norwegian Navy (RNoN)
RANGE
5,000mi at 8kt speed
The Ula Class upgrade programme will ensure the entire fleet remains in service until 2020. The upgrade programme commenced in 2006 and will be engineered by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW). Image courtesy of Sveter.
Ula Class diesel electric submarines are in service with the Royal Norwegian Navy (RnoN). The Ula class was built by Thyssen Nordseewerke. Image courtesy of Scott Wright.
The Royal Norwegian Navy (RnoN) Ula-class submarines Uthaug and Uredd (in front) in the Haakonsvern Naval Base in Bergen. Image courtesy of Sveter.
Ula Class diesel electric submarines have surface speeds of 11kt and submerged speeds of 23kt. The class has a range of 5,000mi at a speed of 8kt. Image courtesy of U.S. Navy.
The Royal Norwegian Navy (RnoN) Ula Class diesel electric submarine KNM Utvaer arrives at Naval Station Norfolk. Image courtesy of U.S. Navy, Chief Mass Communication Specialist Marlowe P Dix.
The Royal Norwegian Navy (RNoN) operates Ula Class diesel electric submarines. Six subs were designed and built by Germany based Thyssen Nordseewerke (TKMS) between 1989 and 1992.
Ula Class was jointly developed by Norway and Germany. The German designation for the submarine is U-Boot-Klasse 210. The hull sections were built in Norway and assembled in Germany.
The first submarine in class, KNM Ula (S-300), was launched in July 1988 and commissioned in April 1989.
KNM Utsira (S-301) was launched in November 1991 and commissioned in April 1992. KNM Utstein (S-302) was launched in April 1991 and commissioned in November 1991. KNM Utvaer (S-303) was launched in April 1990 and commissioned in November 1990. KNM Uthaug (S-304) was launched in October 1990 and commissioned in May 1991. The last ship in class, KNM Uredd (S-305), was launched in September 1989 and commissioned in to the RNoN in May 1990.
Ula Class submarines are one of the quieter and more manoeuvrable subs in the world. The submarine can be hardly detected by enemy surface vessels due to its trimmed profile.
It has a length of 59m, beam of 5.4m and a draft of 4.6m. The surfaced and submerged displacements of the submarine are 1,040t and 1,150t respectively. The submarine can accommodate 21 crew members.
Ula Class submarine upgrades
"Ula Class was jointly developed by Norway and Germany. The German designation for the submarine is U-Boot-Klasse 210."
The Ula Class upgrade programme commenced in 2006. The entire fleet will be upgraded with new combat systems, periscopes, navigation and sensor systems, communications equipment, electronic warfare systems, steering controls and engines by 2015.
About 60 systems will be modernised on each submarine during the upgrade. Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW) will provide engineering assistance throughout the upgrade programme.
The upgrades will ensure the Ula Class submarines remain in service until 2020.
In December 2010, Kongsberg Defence & Aerospace was contracted to supply navigation and radar systems for the Ula Class submarines.
In October 2011, Saab received a SEK105m ($15m) contract from Norwegian Defence Logistics Organisation to upgrade steering control consoles of the Ula Class submarines.
Command and control systems on the Ula Class diesel electric submarines
The Konsberg MSI-90U command and weapons control system of Ula is based on a high-capacity databus and a distributed computer system. The system uses a local area network or point-to-point connections to communicate with the onboard sensors, weapons and navigation system.
The multifunction operator console provides tactical information based on the data available from sensors and other sources. The MSI-90U is also operational with the Type U212A submarines of Germany and Italy.
In May 2008, the Norwegian Defence Logistics Organisation placed an order with Kongsberg Defence & Aerospace for the delivery of a new combat system integration infrastructure, passive sonar system, echo sounder systems and an upgraded tactical simulator for six Ula Class submarines. Delivery is scheduled to conclude by mid 2012.
Torpedoes, sensor / radar systems and countermeasures of the Norwegian subs
Ula Class is fitted with eight 533mm bow torpedo tubes for launching Atlas Elektronik DM2A3 torpedoes. The DM2A3 can carry a 260kg warhead up to a maximum range of 28,000m.
"The Royal Norwegian Navy (RNoN) operates Ula Class diesel electric submarines."
The existing sonar systems are being replaced with Konsberg submarine sonar processing suite which includes passive sonar, passive ranging sonar, intercept sonar, towed array sonar and flank array sonar. The surface search radar fitted is the Kelvin Hughes 1007.
In December 2010, ITT Corporation was awarded a contract by the Norwegian Defence Logistics Organisation to supply six tactical radar electronic support measures (ESM) and surveillance systems for the Ula Class submarines.
The ES-3701 precision ESM system from ITT performs automatic threat detection and warning by monitoring electromagnetic energy generated by other vessels or objects. The system provides accurate outcomes while operating in high density environments.
Propulsion
The Ula Class is powered by diesel-electric propulsion system consisting of two improved MTU 12V 396 diesel engines and an electric motor.
The power plant generates a total power output of 6,000shp. The propulsion system provides a surfaced speed of 11kt and submerged speed of 23kt.
https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/ula-class-submarines/
Sin duda, los ULA serían lo mejor que le podría pasar a una fuerza de submarinos en transición. Sube a la ARA al siglo XXI en sistemas submarinos, sin lugar a dudas.
Con un sistema de combate de lo mejor en el mundo, firma acústica reducida y con sonares de largo alcance (flanco y remolcable), se convierte en un hueso duro de roer... y lo mejor, es que su tamaño más reducido respecto de la línea TR podría aportar bastante en reducir costes operativos en una fuerza donde el dinero no abunda y se necesita volver a levantar el entrenamiento de tripulaciones de manera apremiante.
Saludos
CREW
21
BUILDER
Thyssen Nordseewerke (TKMS)
OPERATOR
Royal Norwegian Navy (RNoN)
RANGE
5,000mi at 8kt speed
The Ula Class upgrade programme will ensure the entire fleet remains in service until 2020. The upgrade programme commenced in 2006 and will be engineered by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW). Image courtesy of Sveter.
Ula Class diesel electric submarines are in service with the Royal Norwegian Navy (RnoN). The Ula class was built by Thyssen Nordseewerke. Image courtesy of Scott Wright.
The Royal Norwegian Navy (RnoN) Ula-class submarines Uthaug and Uredd (in front) in the Haakonsvern Naval Base in Bergen. Image courtesy of Sveter.
Ula Class diesel electric submarines have surface speeds of 11kt and submerged speeds of 23kt. The class has a range of 5,000mi at a speed of 8kt. Image courtesy of U.S. Navy.
The Royal Norwegian Navy (RnoN) Ula Class diesel electric submarine KNM Utvaer arrives at Naval Station Norfolk. Image courtesy of U.S. Navy, Chief Mass Communication Specialist Marlowe P Dix.
The Royal Norwegian Navy (RNoN) operates Ula Class diesel electric submarines. Six subs were designed and built by Germany based Thyssen Nordseewerke (TKMS) between 1989 and 1992.
Ula Class was jointly developed by Norway and Germany. The German designation for the submarine is U-Boot-Klasse 210. The hull sections were built in Norway and assembled in Germany.
The first submarine in class, KNM Ula (S-300), was launched in July 1988 and commissioned in April 1989.
KNM Utsira (S-301) was launched in November 1991 and commissioned in April 1992. KNM Utstein (S-302) was launched in April 1991 and commissioned in November 1991. KNM Utvaer (S-303) was launched in April 1990 and commissioned in November 1990. KNM Uthaug (S-304) was launched in October 1990 and commissioned in May 1991. The last ship in class, KNM Uredd (S-305), was launched in September 1989 and commissioned in to the RNoN in May 1990.
Ula Class submarines are one of the quieter and more manoeuvrable subs in the world. The submarine can be hardly detected by enemy surface vessels due to its trimmed profile.
It has a length of 59m, beam of 5.4m and a draft of 4.6m. The surfaced and submerged displacements of the submarine are 1,040t and 1,150t respectively. The submarine can accommodate 21 crew members.
Ula Class submarine upgrades
"Ula Class was jointly developed by Norway and Germany. The German designation for the submarine is U-Boot-Klasse 210."
The Ula Class upgrade programme commenced in 2006. The entire fleet will be upgraded with new combat systems, periscopes, navigation and sensor systems, communications equipment, electronic warfare systems, steering controls and engines by 2015.
About 60 systems will be modernised on each submarine during the upgrade. Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW) will provide engineering assistance throughout the upgrade programme.
The upgrades will ensure the Ula Class submarines remain in service until 2020.
In December 2010, Kongsberg Defence & Aerospace was contracted to supply navigation and radar systems for the Ula Class submarines.
In October 2011, Saab received a SEK105m ($15m) contract from Norwegian Defence Logistics Organisation to upgrade steering control consoles of the Ula Class submarines.
Command and control systems on the Ula Class diesel electric submarines
The Konsberg MSI-90U command and weapons control system of Ula is based on a high-capacity databus and a distributed computer system. The system uses a local area network or point-to-point connections to communicate with the onboard sensors, weapons and navigation system.
The multifunction operator console provides tactical information based on the data available from sensors and other sources. The MSI-90U is also operational with the Type U212A submarines of Germany and Italy.
In May 2008, the Norwegian Defence Logistics Organisation placed an order with Kongsberg Defence & Aerospace for the delivery of a new combat system integration infrastructure, passive sonar system, echo sounder systems and an upgraded tactical simulator for six Ula Class submarines. Delivery is scheduled to conclude by mid 2012.
Torpedoes, sensor / radar systems and countermeasures of the Norwegian subs
Ula Class is fitted with eight 533mm bow torpedo tubes for launching Atlas Elektronik DM2A3 torpedoes. The DM2A3 can carry a 260kg warhead up to a maximum range of 28,000m.
"The Royal Norwegian Navy (RNoN) operates Ula Class diesel electric submarines."
The existing sonar systems are being replaced with Konsberg submarine sonar processing suite which includes passive sonar, passive ranging sonar, intercept sonar, towed array sonar and flank array sonar. The surface search radar fitted is the Kelvin Hughes 1007.
In December 2010, ITT Corporation was awarded a contract by the Norwegian Defence Logistics Organisation to supply six tactical radar electronic support measures (ESM) and surveillance systems for the Ula Class submarines.
The ES-3701 precision ESM system from ITT performs automatic threat detection and warning by monitoring electromagnetic energy generated by other vessels or objects. The system provides accurate outcomes while operating in high density environments.
Propulsion
The Ula Class is powered by diesel-electric propulsion system consisting of two improved MTU 12V 396 diesel engines and an electric motor.
The power plant generates a total power output of 6,000shp. The propulsion system provides a surfaced speed of 11kt and submerged speed of 23kt.
https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/ula-class-submarines/
Sin duda, los ULA serían lo mejor que le podría pasar a una fuerza de submarinos en transición. Sube a la ARA al siglo XXI en sistemas submarinos, sin lugar a dudas.
Con un sistema de combate de lo mejor en el mundo, firma acústica reducida y con sonares de largo alcance (flanco y remolcable), se convierte en un hueso duro de roer... y lo mejor, es que su tamaño más reducido respecto de la línea TR podría aportar bastante en reducir costes operativos en una fuerza donde el dinero no abunda y se necesita volver a levantar el entrenamiento de tripulaciones de manera apremiante.
Saludos
Ni hablar. Además,el frente marítimo de Noruega debe ser (a ojo) comparable al nuestro y en mares complicados y condiciones muy variables, de Svalbard al Skagerrak. Un matiz, Noruega opera en el marco de la OTAN con lo cual puede especializarse bajo un paraguas de capacidades garantizado.
Ver para creer, no hay un mango ni tienen buenos antecedentes estos (ya nadie tiene). La tragedia del San Juan si puede generar cierta consciencia de apoyo, aunque puede tener doble filo.
Soñemos. Ya estamos acostumbradis.
Hola,
Gracias por esa información, pues parece que seria una muy buena opción para vosotros.
S2
Gracias por esa información, pues parece que seria una muy buena opción para vosotros.
S2
stalder
Analista de Temas de Defensa
La opcion seria ir por 2 SSK clase ULA los cuales tengo entendido estaria uno liberado para Venta en el 2021 y otro en el 2022
Dar de baja el SSK Salta
y hacer un MLU con modernizacion y remocion de obsolecencias y Seguridad al Santa Cruz
quedando 2 Clase ULA y un TR
Dar de baja el SSK Salta
y hacer un MLU con modernizacion y remocion de obsolecencias y Seguridad al Santa Cruz
quedando 2 Clase ULA y un TR
Me parece que antes de modernizar, comprar baterias nuevas y remover obsolescencias (valvulas, cañerias) del Santa Cruz, lo cual seguro demandaría sus buenos pesos, seria mejor tratar de terminar al Santa Fe, al menos tendrías un casco sin uso (ni toqueteos raros) y dejar al Santa Cruz como fuente de repuestos que aun sirvan.
Con el presedente de que ni teniendo una Fábrica de Submarinos que en su momento fué de lo mejor que había en Sud América pudimos terminar uno , me decanto por un par de ULA y a corto/mediano plazo otro par de , no se , Scorpene fabricados en Brasil , en un programa lo más integrado con nuestra industria nacional pero que se enpiecen terminen afuera desde el primer al último tornillo .
