Si, es bastante deprimente la cosa...
Rumores y discusión sobre el próximo multirrol que no fue para la FAA
- Tema iniciado Cocker
- Fecha de inicio
Si, es bastante deprimente la cosa...
Para mi deberíamos comparar F22s contra Su-57 para ver cuál nos conviene más, el hilo al menos va a estar más divertido.
gente como @spirit666 arruinan todo con sus mensajes bajoneros:
saludos
Argentina, se dice Argentina.
desgraciadamente....por lo que se ve....la factibilidad de adquisicion de discutir fa-50/tutuca o f22/su57....parece ser la misma.
Hay dos opciones: mostramos la realidad o vendemos humo.
Pd: no te interesa el Sukhoi Su-30SM con aviónica y armamento israelí..?
Miche, es que siempre fue así. No sé trata de ver quien tiene razón o no, sino de ver más o menos como viene la mano. Tampoco es que estamos descubriendo nada nuevo.
Por evaluar opciones? Al contrario.
Roland55
Colaborador
olvidese de lo ruso/chino, que comparten la filosofía tutuquera de tener poco y nada de vida util
Pero... Pero... Momento, momentillo... Aún así sigue prefiriendo un FA50 a un SU30?
Aquí un análisis de caso que hicimos en otro foro, con el caso de los 24 F-16 C/D de Indonesia sacados de AMARG y llevados a un estandar de Block 50 con soporte y paquete de armamento.
F-16
Opciones: CASO 1 - Indonesia
Paquete regenerado Indonesia F-16 C/D Block 25 vía EDA Excess Defense Articles llevado al estandar Block 50.
Radar: APG-68V5 llevado a V9
EW: ALQ-213 MAWS
Designador: Sniper o Littening
INDONESIA – REGENERATION AND UPGRADE OF F-16C/D BLOCK 25 AIRCRAFT
WASHINGTON, Nov. 17, 2011 – The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress Nov. 16 of a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Indonesia for the regeneration and upgrade of 24 F-16C/D Block 25 aircraft and associated equipment, parts, training and logistical support for an estimated cost of $750 million.
The Government of Indonesia has requested a sale for the regeneration and upgrade of 24 F-16C/D Block 25 aircraft and 28 F100-PW-200 or F100-PW-220E engines being granted as Excess Defense Articles. The upgrade includes the following major systems and components: LAU-129A/A Launchers, ALR-69 Radar Warning Receivers, ARC-164/186 Radios, Expanded Enhanced Fire Control (EEFC) or Commercial Fire Control, or Modular Mission Computers, ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems, ALE-47 Countermeasures Dispenser Systems, Cartridge Actuated Devices/Propellant Actuated Devices (CAD/PAD), Situational Awareness Data Link, Enhance Position Location Reporting Systems (EPLRS), LN-260 (SPS version, non-PPS), and AN/AAQ-33 SNIPER or AN/AAQ-28 LITENING Targeting Systems. Also included are tools, support and test equipment, spare and repair parts, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistical and program support. The estimated cost is $750 million.
https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sale...ck-25-aircraft
Hoy actualizado por inflación gracias a https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/
Nos da un costo del paquete sin armamento de $859,556,368.62
Ahora le sumamos el armamento
INDONESIA - AIM-120C-7 ADVANCED MEDIUM-RANGE AIR-TO-AIR MISSILES (AMRAAMS)
WASHINGTON, Mar. 10, 2016 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to Indonesia for AIM-120C-7 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAMs), equipment, training, and logistics support. The estimated cost is $95 million. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale on March 9, 2016.
The Government of Indonesia has requested a possible sale of thirty-six (36) AIM-120C-7 AMRAAMs and one (1) Missile Guidance Section. Also included in this possible sale are; control section support equipment, spare parts, services, logistics, technical contractor engineering and technical support, loading adaptors, technical publications, familiarization training, test equipment, and other related elements. The total estimated value of MDE is $80 million. The overall total estimated value is $95 million.
https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sale...ssiles-amraams
El paquete total de 36 AIM-120C7 de 95 millones actualizados a 2020 nos da $102,041,669.62
INDONESIA – AIM-9X-2 SIDEWINDER MISSILES
WASHINGTON, May 5, 2015 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to Indonesia for AIM-9X-2 Sidewinder Missiles and associated equipment, parts and logistical support for an estimated cost of $47 million. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale today.
The Government of Indonesia has requested a possible sale of 30 AIM-9X-2 Sidewinder Block II All-Up-Round Missiles, 20 AIM-9X-2 Captive Air Training Missiles (CATM), 2 CATM-9X-2 Block II Tactical Missile Guidance Units, 4 CATM-9X-2 Block II Guidance Units, and 2 Dummy Air Training Missiles, containers, test sets and support equipment, spare and repair parts, publications and technical documents, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical assistance, and other related elements of logistics and program support. The estimated cost is $47 million.
https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sale...ssiles-amraams
Más el paquete de 30 AIM-9X-2 que es un misil top, nos da un valor actualizado de $51,120,632.70
Considerando un paquete básico de armamento aire tierra que consideraba la compra de estos 24 F-16 C/D (de nuevo, no son A/B MLU, son del modelo C/D que de partida viene con APG-68 ):
INDONESIA – AGM-65K2 MAVERICK MISSILES
WASHINGTON, August 22, 2012 – The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress August 21 of a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Indonesia for 18 AGM-65K2 MAVERICK All-Up-Round Missiles and associated equipment, parts, training and logistical support at an estimated cost of $25 million.
The Government of Indonesia has requested a possible sale of 18 AGM-65K2 MAVERICK All-Up-Round Missiles, 36 TGM-65K2 Captive Air Training Missiles, 3 TGM-65D Maintenance Training Missiles, spare and repair parts, support equipment, tool and test equipment, personnel training and training equipment, publications and technical data, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services and other related elements of program and logistics support. The estimated cost is $25 million.
This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a friendly country which has been, and continues to be, an important force for political stability and economic progress in Southeast Asia.
The Indonesian Air Force (IAF) needs these missiles to train its F-16 pilots in basic air-to-ground weapons employment. The quantities in the proposed sale will support the IAFs existing fleet of 10 F-16s, as well as the 24 F-16s being provided as Excess Defense Articles. The proposed sale will foster continued cooperation between the U.S. and Indonesia, making Indonesia a more valuable regional partner in an important area of the world.
https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sale...erick-missiles
18 Maverick-K2 por 25 millones de dólares, actualizados a 2020 da $28,070,964.40
EN TOTAL
Eso da un valor completo de avión, regeneración, soporte logístico, pods designadores, paquete de armamento aire-aire 36 AIM-120C7, 30 AIM-9X-2 y paquete aire-tierra con 18 AGM-65K2 de:
$1,040,789,135.34 USD de 2020 por 24 aviones, dando un total de 43,36 millones de dólares por unidad con todo incluido. Sólo con el paquete básico sin armamento baja a 35,8 millones de dólares de 2020.
Son valores razonables para armamento top en cantidades pequeñas pero proporcionales para una flota de ese tamaño.
Saludos
F-16
Opciones: CASO 1 - Indonesia
Paquete regenerado Indonesia F-16 C/D Block 25 vía EDA Excess Defense Articles llevado al estandar Block 50.
Radar: APG-68V5 llevado a V9
EW: ALQ-213 MAWS
Designador: Sniper o Littening
INDONESIA – REGENERATION AND UPGRADE OF F-16C/D BLOCK 25 AIRCRAFT
WASHINGTON, Nov. 17, 2011 – The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress Nov. 16 of a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Indonesia for the regeneration and upgrade of 24 F-16C/D Block 25 aircraft and associated equipment, parts, training and logistical support for an estimated cost of $750 million.
The Government of Indonesia has requested a sale for the regeneration and upgrade of 24 F-16C/D Block 25 aircraft and 28 F100-PW-200 or F100-PW-220E engines being granted as Excess Defense Articles. The upgrade includes the following major systems and components: LAU-129A/A Launchers, ALR-69 Radar Warning Receivers, ARC-164/186 Radios, Expanded Enhanced Fire Control (EEFC) or Commercial Fire Control, or Modular Mission Computers, ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems, ALE-47 Countermeasures Dispenser Systems, Cartridge Actuated Devices/Propellant Actuated Devices (CAD/PAD), Situational Awareness Data Link, Enhance Position Location Reporting Systems (EPLRS), LN-260 (SPS version, non-PPS), and AN/AAQ-33 SNIPER or AN/AAQ-28 LITENING Targeting Systems. Also included are tools, support and test equipment, spare and repair parts, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistical and program support. The estimated cost is $750 million.
https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sale...ck-25-aircraft
Hoy actualizado por inflación gracias a https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/
Nos da un costo del paquete sin armamento de $859,556,368.62
Ahora le sumamos el armamento
INDONESIA - AIM-120C-7 ADVANCED MEDIUM-RANGE AIR-TO-AIR MISSILES (AMRAAMS)
WASHINGTON, Mar. 10, 2016 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to Indonesia for AIM-120C-7 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAMs), equipment, training, and logistics support. The estimated cost is $95 million. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale on March 9, 2016.
The Government of Indonesia has requested a possible sale of thirty-six (36) AIM-120C-7 AMRAAMs and one (1) Missile Guidance Section. Also included in this possible sale are; control section support equipment, spare parts, services, logistics, technical contractor engineering and technical support, loading adaptors, technical publications, familiarization training, test equipment, and other related elements. The total estimated value of MDE is $80 million. The overall total estimated value is $95 million.
https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sale...ssiles-amraams
El paquete total de 36 AIM-120C7 de 95 millones actualizados a 2020 nos da $102,041,669.62
INDONESIA – AIM-9X-2 SIDEWINDER MISSILES
WASHINGTON, May 5, 2015 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to Indonesia for AIM-9X-2 Sidewinder Missiles and associated equipment, parts and logistical support for an estimated cost of $47 million. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale today.
The Government of Indonesia has requested a possible sale of 30 AIM-9X-2 Sidewinder Block II All-Up-Round Missiles, 20 AIM-9X-2 Captive Air Training Missiles (CATM), 2 CATM-9X-2 Block II Tactical Missile Guidance Units, 4 CATM-9X-2 Block II Guidance Units, and 2 Dummy Air Training Missiles, containers, test sets and support equipment, spare and repair parts, publications and technical documents, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical assistance, and other related elements of logistics and program support. The estimated cost is $47 million.
https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sale...ssiles-amraams
Más el paquete de 30 AIM-9X-2 que es un misil top, nos da un valor actualizado de $51,120,632.70
Considerando un paquete básico de armamento aire tierra que consideraba la compra de estos 24 F-16 C/D (de nuevo, no son A/B MLU, son del modelo C/D que de partida viene con APG-68 ):
INDONESIA – AGM-65K2 MAVERICK MISSILES
WASHINGTON, August 22, 2012 – The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress August 21 of a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Indonesia for 18 AGM-65K2 MAVERICK All-Up-Round Missiles and associated equipment, parts, training and logistical support at an estimated cost of $25 million.
The Government of Indonesia has requested a possible sale of 18 AGM-65K2 MAVERICK All-Up-Round Missiles, 36 TGM-65K2 Captive Air Training Missiles, 3 TGM-65D Maintenance Training Missiles, spare and repair parts, support equipment, tool and test equipment, personnel training and training equipment, publications and technical data, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services and other related elements of program and logistics support. The estimated cost is $25 million.
This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a friendly country which has been, and continues to be, an important force for political stability and economic progress in Southeast Asia.
The Indonesian Air Force (IAF) needs these missiles to train its F-16 pilots in basic air-to-ground weapons employment. The quantities in the proposed sale will support the IAFs existing fleet of 10 F-16s, as well as the 24 F-16s being provided as Excess Defense Articles. The proposed sale will foster continued cooperation between the U.S. and Indonesia, making Indonesia a more valuable regional partner in an important area of the world.
https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sale...erick-missiles
18 Maverick-K2 por 25 millones de dólares, actualizados a 2020 da $28,070,964.40
EN TOTAL
Eso da un valor completo de avión, regeneración, soporte logístico, pods designadores, paquete de armamento aire-aire 36 AIM-120C7, 30 AIM-9X-2 y paquete aire-tierra con 18 AGM-65K2 de:
$1,040,789,135.34 USD de 2020 por 24 aviones, dando un total de 43,36 millones de dólares por unidad con todo incluido. Sólo con el paquete básico sin armamento baja a 35,8 millones de dólares de 2020.
Son valores razonables para armamento top en cantidades pequeñas pero proporcionales para una flota de ese tamaño.
Saludos
Roland55
Colaborador
Si..., no por que a mis ojos sea mejor (claramente no lo es), pero para que no los puedan mantener, que cada 600hs los motores se vallan para russia y que nos pase como a perú, que apenas pueden poner a volar sus Mig-29. No gracias..., vamos por algo que funcione y se adapte a el pobre presupuesto que nos dan.
Tendrá una selección de armamentos enorme, y lo que quieras, pero para la FAA.. No.
Bueno, entonces, estamos de acuerdo en que la FAA va por algo que no le sirve para mas que volar por arriba del mach, y que está por debajo de lo mas "pedorro" que hay en el barrio, que son los F-5 de la FACH y de la FAB.
También estamos de acuerdo, entonces, como dije acá #78.767 con que ;
Se habla del FA-50 como si fuera lo mejor que le puede pasar a la FAA.
El proyecto de la FAA con el FA-50, no se conoce(mas allá de las averiguaciones de integrarle BVR y sonda) porque verdaderamente no hay proyecto.
El único proyecto que tiene en mente la FAA, es no desaparecer por completo.
Y si la FAA mira esta otra torta oriental, es por que no le largan un peso partido por el medio para adquirir lo que realmente necesita.
Para mi, hablar de la tutuca o de la albondiga coreana es lo mismo.
Y para la FAA,ambos, pueden llegar a terminar siendo un salva vidas de plomo.
Vos me hablas de integración de tal o cual armamento, cuando lo mas probable,de comprarse ésta albondiga, es que no porten mas que un AIM-9 y bombas tontas.
La albondiga coreana, es de San Isidro, y debe estar afiliada al Club Atlético San Isidro.
CASI tiene sonda.
CASI integra BVR.
CASI integra designadores.
CASI integra un misil anti buque de mayor alcance.
CASI integra tanques conformables.
CASI integra un radar que vea mas allá del horizonte.
El gripen no es una opción.
Si algún miembro de la FAA con un Grado alto lo consideró idoneo, que presente la renuncia.
Comentario muy cierto y bastante triste.
Osea, que indonesia compró 24 CCIP U$$ 750M!.Aquí un análisis de caso que hicimos en otro foro, con el caso de los 24 F-16 C/D de Indonesia sacados de AMARG y llevados a un estandar de Block 50 con soporte y paquete de armamento.
F-16
Opciones: CASO 1 - Indonesia
Paquete regenerado Indonesia F-16 C/D Block 25 vía EDA Excess Defense Articles llevado al estandar Block 50.
Radar: APG-68V5 llevado a V9
EW: ALQ-213 MAWS
Designador: Sniper o Littening
INDONESIA – REGENERATION AND UPGRADE OF F-16C/D BLOCK 25 AIRCRAFT
WASHINGTON, Nov. 17, 2011 – The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress Nov. 16 of a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Indonesia for the regeneration and upgrade of 24 F-16C/D Block 25 aircraft and associated equipment, parts, training and logistical support for an estimated cost of $750 million.
The Government of Indonesia has requested a sale for the regeneration and upgrade of 24 F-16C/D Block 25 aircraft and 28 F100-PW-200 or F100-PW-220E engines being granted as Excess Defense Articles. The upgrade includes the following major systems and components: LAU-129A/A Launchers, ALR-69 Radar Warning Receivers, ARC-164/186 Radios, Expanded Enhanced Fire Control (EEFC) or Commercial Fire Control, or Modular Mission Computers, ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems, ALE-47 Countermeasures Dispenser Systems, Cartridge Actuated Devices/Propellant Actuated Devices (CAD/PAD), Situational Awareness Data Link, Enhance Position Location Reporting Systems (EPLRS), LN-260 (SPS version, non-PPS), and AN/AAQ-33 SNIPER or AN/AAQ-28 LITENING Targeting Systems. Also included are tools, support and test equipment, spare and repair parts, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistical and program support. The estimated cost is $750 million.
https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sale...ck-25-aircraft
Hoy actualizado por inflación gracias a https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/
Nos da un costo del paquete sin armamento de $859,556,368.62
Ahora le sumamos el armamento
INDONESIA - AIM-120C-7 ADVANCED MEDIUM-RANGE AIR-TO-AIR MISSILES (AMRAAMS)
WASHINGTON, Mar. 10, 2016 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to Indonesia for AIM-120C-7 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAMs), equipment, training, and logistics support. The estimated cost is $95 million. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale on March 9, 2016.
The Government of Indonesia has requested a possible sale of thirty-six (36) AIM-120C-7 AMRAAMs and one (1) Missile Guidance Section. Also included in this possible sale are; control section support equipment, spare parts, services, logistics, technical contractor engineering and technical support, loading adaptors, technical publications, familiarization training, test equipment, and other related elements. The total estimated value of MDE is $80 million. The overall total estimated value is $95 million.
https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sale...ssiles-amraams
El paquete total de 36 AIM-120C7 de 95 millones actualizados a 2020 nos da $102,041,669.62
INDONESIA – AIM-9X-2 SIDEWINDER MISSILES
WASHINGTON, May 5, 2015 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to Indonesia for AIM-9X-2 Sidewinder Missiles and associated equipment, parts and logistical support for an estimated cost of $47 million. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale today.
The Government of Indonesia has requested a possible sale of 30 AIM-9X-2 Sidewinder Block II All-Up-Round Missiles, 20 AIM-9X-2 Captive Air Training Missiles (CATM), 2 CATM-9X-2 Block II Tactical Missile Guidance Units, 4 CATM-9X-2 Block II Guidance Units, and 2 Dummy Air Training Missiles, containers, test sets and support equipment, spare and repair parts, publications and technical documents, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical assistance, and other related elements of logistics and program support. The estimated cost is $47 million.
https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sale...ssiles-amraams
Más el paquete de 30 AIM-9X-2 que es un misil top, nos da un valor actualizado de $51,120,632.70
Considerando un paquete básico de armamento aire tierra que consideraba la compra de estos 24 F-16 C/D (de nuevo, no son A/B MLU, son del modelo C/D que de partida viene con APG-68 ):
INDONESIA – AGM-65K2 MAVERICK MISSILES
WASHINGTON, August 22, 2012 – The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress August 21 of a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Indonesia for 18 AGM-65K2 MAVERICK All-Up-Round Missiles and associated equipment, parts, training and logistical support at an estimated cost of $25 million.
The Government of Indonesia has requested a possible sale of 18 AGM-65K2 MAVERICK All-Up-Round Missiles, 36 TGM-65K2 Captive Air Training Missiles, 3 TGM-65D Maintenance Training Missiles, spare and repair parts, support equipment, tool and test equipment, personnel training and training equipment, publications and technical data, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services and other related elements of program and logistics support. The estimated cost is $25 million.
This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a friendly country which has been, and continues to be, an important force for political stability and economic progress in Southeast Asia.
The Indonesian Air Force (IAF) needs these missiles to train its F-16 pilots in basic air-to-ground weapons employment. The quantities in the proposed sale will support the IAFs existing fleet of 10 F-16s, as well as the 24 F-16s being provided as Excess Defense Articles. The proposed sale will foster continued cooperation between the U.S. and Indonesia, making Indonesia a more valuable regional partner in an important area of the world.
https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sale...erick-missiles
18 Maverick-K2 por 25 millones de dólares, actualizados a 2020 da $28,070,964.40
EN TOTAL
Eso da un valor completo de avión, regeneración, soporte logístico, pods designadores, paquete de armamento aire-aire 36 AIM-120C7, 30 AIM-9X-2 y paquete aire-tierra con 18 AGM-65K2 de:
$1,040,789,135.34 USD de 2020 por 24 aviones, dando un total de 43,36 millones de dólares por unidad con todo incluido. Sólo con el paquete básico sin armamento baja a 35,8 millones de dólares de 2020.
Son valores razonables para armamento top en cantidades pequeñas pero proporcionales para una flota de ese tamaño.
Saludos
Y acá se quieren patinar 500 palos verdes en 10 entrenadores engordados...
Muchachos, tenemos lo que nos merecemos.
Última edición:
General Dynamics, pero no puedo sustentarlo, lo leí hace mucho.
...no siempre se puede todo lo que se necesita, ni siquiera lo pueden aun las grandes potencias con muchos ejemplos durante la historia, ver en cada circunstancia que se puede en funcion de lo que se tiene, no esta mal, dentro una una planificacion a largo plazo (aunque nadie asegura que se pueda cumplir). Pero es mas logico pensar y actuar asi, con un objetivo establecido, que sentarse a esperar que ocurra un milagro basado en sueños inalcanzables en el corto/mediano plazo. No se, pero se me ocurre pensar en lo que era la Lufwaffe previo a 1935 con sus limitaciones impuestas por el tratado de Versalles.
En realidad son ejemplares Block 25 llevados a Block 32 pero manteniendo el mismo motor y el CCIP es parcial. Además tené en cuenta que Indonesia dispone del F-16 desde 1989, o sea que ya tiene todo lo necesario para su operación y mantenimiento. Los primeros fueron Block 15OCU y los segundos Block 25, contando ambos block`s con el mismo modelo de motor, hecho que redujo considerablemente el gasto inicial de herramientas, bancos de prueba y repuestos.
Si, pero con misiles chinos.
Eso, eso! mejor hablemos del Su-30. Es menos depre.
saludos
Para tener una idea del costo que implica introducir F-16 de segunda mano sin experiencia previa, se puede chequear los contratos rumanos por los F-16 MLU portugueses
Buen punto de referencia. Fueron 17 ejemplares (uno como fuente de repuestos) con un contrato inicial de U$M 734 (12 ejemplares) y uno adicional por U$M 115 (5 ejemplares).
O sea 53 palitos verdes por cada ejemplar operativo, y hablamos de ejemplares de segunda y tercera mano (ex USAF, ex Portugal) y sin armamento.
Temas similares
- Cerrado
